Allow students to be taken out of school for two weeks a year without penalty

[Kalevala]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/658365

"Families face school fines for taking their children out of school to go on affordable holidays. This can be a particular issue for low-income families, and families with children that have additional needs, who want or need to avoid busier and more expensive periods."

Are they? In my experience the teacher just sends a quick email saying what the work is, so that the child can do it in isolation.

The holiday companies would just extend their expensive times. And meanwhile, families' holidays wpuld be messed up by having kids (and teacher parents) in schools with different holidays.

How monstrous of them to try and impose good attendance.

Ridiculous. Teachers have enough stress and workload without having to explain to returning absent kids what they have missed. Muliply that by 30 then it is crazy, also add in the teacher and any TAs going off for two weeks with their own kids.

There are loads of stats out there with the correlation of absenteeism and exam results, maybe have a little read about them when you are lying on your sunbed whilst you are neglecting your child's education.

The problem with this idea is that it assumes that kids learn at the same rate. That you explain something once, and have to move on in a stepwise fashion. In reality, it does not work like that. Learning requires repetition, and the amount of/ number of repitions that every child needs is different.

I think there is an element of middle class virtuous sneering at perhaps the working class who possibly have demanding jobs with low pay and live for a holiday. Yes those people exist. We cannot quantify how much benefit such a family gains from a family rest and reset with accompanying mental health benefits. We here the refrain 'I need a holiday' constantly and yet we feel righteous to a demand that the low paid forgo what many feel an integral part of their lives which brings pleasure.

I would like to see the evidence that taking a week off during term time has a manifest impact on a quantifiable metric i.e. GCSE results . Does such evidence exist? I think anecdotally most teachers would say that children's exam results are much more reliant on innate intelligence, general desire to learn, family encouragement etc.

Preventing children from going on holiday in such a way when it is is relatively inexpensive can bias against large families, often religous, possibly of an ethnic minority . Has this been considered. Have single parents been considered when their income may be low and this is their only feasible means of a true break from a demanding life? If a child has SEN holistically does having the family and child have a significant holiday out way any possible small increase in formal qualification grades when they may be unfortunately low anyway?

I think if someone can rebut this with firm evidence I may be convinced not pious oratory about the importance of education which seems both authoritarian and a little sanctimonious.

There is huge amounts of very clear evidence - there is a correlation between attendance and GCSE results. A quick google will take you to pages of it.

Of course many people would like a lovely holiday in the sun, but sadly not everyone can afford it. If a family can’t afford a holiday because of the number of children they have that is a lifestyle choice and nothing to do with the school. Most people think about whether they can afford the cost of a child before having one. It is possible to have a lower cost uk holiday in the holidays by eg camping. If that is all a family can afford that is nothing to do with the school or government.

And of course if more people take holidays in term time then the cost of those will rise anyway - no more bargain holidays for people whose children have grown up!

I've worked in several schools. The curriculum is now so huge and full that every day of learning is precious. Missing two weeks would be huge - that could cover two units of maths, a massive chunk of English, several History/Science/Geography lessons etc. Teachers do their best, but in reality it just isn't possible to catch up all that missed learning.

However well your child does, they would probably have done even better if they'd been in school and not on a holiday. For children needing extra support or prone to anxiety etc it's even harder as they get out of the routine and often find it really hard to get back into the rhythm of things. If you choose to take a child on holiday in term time then that is your choice, but there are consequences.
I do value travel as education, but for the most part it's simply a case of missing school for a cheap holiday in the sun.

Furthermore, many seem to moan that the 6 weeks (shortest anywhere) holiday is too difficult to cover, yet apparently have plenty of holiday to use going abroad at other times.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/short-breaks-damage-young-peoples-futures

Government research to try and prove a point here. If you look at the headline figures even with no absence there are 56% of children that fail at the particular standard set by the research. Therefore there is a lot more to educational poor outcomes that simply poor atrendence. A deeper dive into he results show quite rightly it is persistent and lengthy absence that has a significant impact on a child's educational outcome as expected but the relative definition in results between say the top 5% of attendees and the next 5% is probably insignificant This seems to be cherry picking stars to cause school and parental fear about short term absence for holidays when the real problem of the complex social reasons for significant life damaging non attendance is moved to one side.

Coupling parents and children who miss school for holidays with those children from deprived backgrounds who for various reasons miss appreciable periods form school is disingenuous. The research does nothing to look into the reasons for the absence and there is the failure to acknowledge the statistical maxim 'causation does not mean correlation', it could be for instance the child is non academic and therefore decides not to attend school as they feel it is not worth it.

No I still feel this patriarchal authoritative view of holidays during term time feels more like overbearing state and there are parents who are making decisions they feel right for their family as a whole being stigmatized for fundamentally destroying their children's life chances which is the education version of project fear.

I am not saying it is right in every case for term time holidays to happen but the misuse of statistics not looking into cofactors other than absence into education achievement isn't correct. The then educational Nicky Morgan probably had a grand time abroad with her children during their school holidays but she was in a position to afford it - more hectoring from the middle classes to the uneducated feckless masses that having a low income take the heinous decision to take their kids out of school for a short period of time for a well deserved holiday.

And religous / cultural absence is for another post.....

What would you say to the parents of kids missing the first week of the year? I teach a few of these (well, in theory, they’ve missed the first lesson already)? Ks4/5 They’ve missed the beginning of course outline (including NEA) key skills, how it will be assessed, expectations and the introduction to our topics. They’ve missed the ‘what do we already know’ (v useful for me!) context setting, key vocab, and the big questions we are seeking to answer. We started the first topic - key ideas, vocab and theories. Ks3 classes have missed the same at a more basic level + review of progress made last year and identifying the individual ‘next steps’ they need to make progress. + summarising a timeline to put the topics we are doing this year in context and start to identify main themes. Did none of that matter?

I don’t think parents understand how much content is covered and progress in terms of skills is made each lesson. Lessons are generally planned in a sequence of a few weeks- introduce, learning /doing, assess - miss ANY of these weeks and you’ve substantially reduced progress / understanding in the whole unit. Absence doesn’t just affect the time away, but the time each side too. A fortnight away in the middle of term would massive impact the whole of that half term.

edited for typo

Often those children that miss lessons are from families that possibly have a different view of the necessity of education and suffering cultural perspetives. IIt could be children that fail to attend due to holiday absence are generally not academic any partly due to family perpective. This view is hard to combat but one thing I don't feel works is stigmitisation or penalizing of families as this leads to further disengagement in my opinion, an us vs them scenario. Presentation of data in way to project fear again in my opinion isn't constructive.

I wouldn't expect teachers to redeliver lessons etc as this is impractical and a the end of the day the parents have made a choice but a condescending finger waving attitude towards essentially working class.families doesn't work.

There are anecdotal situations in my experience where a very educated but low paid family (public sector) routinely took their family out of school for a period of about a year and one of their children is now at Oxford. According to the parent of you can access a curriculum on the internet you can easily home school to catch up (helped one partner worked as a tutor). In this case I think image academic ability and a desire to learn surmounted d any difficulties of missing school. I think this is a rarity but shows that a room laden message that failure to attend school will condemn your child to a lifetime of failure is not universally applicable.

Another parent I know whose child was unfortunately very ill one year did not get support during periods of absence such as homework as they didn't want to encourage absenteeism (and to protect their stats). The school also thought it may set a president that if I'll children could be supported to minimise impact on educafiinoutocme it would belie the fact that absence per se was damaging and the parents of holiday absence children may demand the same.

I don't think here is an easy answer to all this but dedication of parents making decisions for their families is not the way forward. Taking children out of school for various reasons does not make them irresposible. I partially dislike any insinuation that term time absence for holiday reasons can be viewed as safeguarding concern.

https://www.history.com/news/9-things-you-may-not-know-about-albert-einstein

Einstein dropped out of school at 15 but by then he basically knew everything he needed. I think this exposes shows the extremely able aren't limited by school attendance in much the same way full attendance doesn't guarentee good grades.

Life is unfair in this respect and I don't think school attended mandation ultimately effects a child's image academic ability .

No you shouldn’t be allowed because you chose to work in a school knowing that you would have fixed holidays ……it’s fine for anyone who doesn’t have fixed holidays

mydyis - obviously very bright, motivated kids are less affected by absence - they’ll want to catch up and ensure that they do so. Those kids will probably not want to go on holiday in term time anyway. IME unfortunately it is very often the kids that find it hardest to catch up that take term time holidays. I’m sure we could discuss the reasons for this at length. Kids that take term time holidays have a higher than average absence rate through the rest of the year too, again perhaps not surprisingly. This is based upon on data from schools I’ve worked in.

We aren’t talking about Einstein or kids who miss school through illness. talking about normal children missing a couple of weeks of school through choice. It’s a huge amount of work to catch up and very few kids and parents have the ability or motivation to fully catch up. Most people who take a term time holiday in the sun don’t homeschool their kids while they are there!!

Safeguarding should always be considered with term time absence - ever worked in a school where girls were taken abroad for FGM?

Sorry one week a year above.....

But parents also choose to send their children to school knowing there are fixed holidays. You choose to use a school you need to abide by the rules. Teachers and support staff using their time trying to help children who've been on holiday to catch up has an impact on all the other children in class.

Sandyankles

However isn't there a general problem about education in these families in the sense it is not prioritised and it may be even with full attendance the child may not perform spectacualrly. Referencing the state above from the government over half of children that had full school attendance failed in terms of English baccelarueate.Why is this?

I think absence for school is being inflated as an issue for those families that simply do it for an economic holiday. There will always be those two miles where there is serious consecutive absence often coupled with very poor educational outcome and possibly family intervention from differing agencies. This where safeguarding should step in. Conflating parents who take their kids to Spain for a cheap sunny holiday with parents who consistently don't support (or even care) about their children with associated long term absence is wrong in my opinion. It is a different scale of problem.

I was pointing out that bright kids do well What ever simply because well they are intelligent belies any mantra that any sort of absence is calamitous to a child's prospects. Exaggeration doesn't help.

By the way Shakepeare left school at 14.....bloody feckless NEET

This is the answer.

No it is a terrible idea. Bad for the children and the teachers, due to the interruption to the learning.

Decades ago I started teaching in a very poor area, when going on holiday wasn't a big thing for that community. Absenteeism was rife for some of the families. I remember telling my class one day late in the year that it was the first day every child had been in school.

There was a system for dealing with persistent absence back then but it had few powers so didn't work if parents were resistant. Some children got barely any education at all (one alcoholic mother made one of her children stay home every day to care for her).

It wouldn't be just the nice middle class families going on a lovely holiday who took advantage of a system like the one suggested, and made sure the children caught up later...........

I'd like more flexibility because quite frankly, Europe (where I like to go) is too hot in the summer.
However, if everyone did it, there could be children away pretty much every single week and the impact that has on continuity is vast.
It's not just Bob catching up on his two weeks away, there's Fred and Sarah as well, who missed a slightly different period over the same month and are in some of the same classes as Bob (secondary school). This is in addition to sickness and other attendance issues that are blighting schools right now.
I think that if everyone had a healthy approach to attendance, then a week or two over a number of years would be fine. But not two weeks every year.

It is unworkable. 60 weeks teaching time lost in an average class of 30, all at different times and with different combinations of pupils off, likely mostly towards start and end of the year. How much time would be wasted catching up rather than progressing?

I think there just had to be a tacit acceptance in some cases this will happen. A nominal fine to show tthat he school disapprove of the choice is acceptable and it shouldn't be encouraged.

Parents shouldn't be shamed as in my experience these are good parents who have had difficult years and needed a summer break with guaranteed whether for the overall mental health of the family. The families may not prioritise education to an extent some on this thread do but they do love their children and provide good home stability often in the face of financial hardship.

Exaggeration of the threat to life chances through limited term time absence is wrong as this adds to the distress of children who are ill and in reality there are greater factors at a society and individual level that lead to poor educational outcomes. Objectively it is an unfairness but there is a spectrum of intelligence within society and this image intelligence in my opinion is the greatest factor in general outcomes.

It is obvious that those intelligent children from educated families are in reality least likely to miss school in this way (though I have shown an example to the contrary). It is therefore unclear whether there relatively good achievement is due to presence at school or just general ability. Similarly 100% attendance does not guarantee good results so we need to look into this (more so than short term absence)