Private school : VAT : labour

[Usernamerequired123]

I have recently come across this petition. Not sure if many of you have seen this.


https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools?recruiter=false&utmsource=shareepetition&utmcampaign=psffcomboshareeinitial&utmmedium=whatsapp&utmmcontent=washarecopy376858822en-GB%3Acv451328&recruiteddbyid=44b8f4b0-d22c-11ee-82d6-61cc5900aa84&shareebanditexp=initial-37685882-en-GB

[spiritualawakening]

[eye roll]

[lizzowhiz]

I don't have a problem at all VAT being added

[AdamRyan]

There's another thread on this
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/5010383-labours-plans-for-vat-on-private-schools

[MisterChips]

@lizzowhiz

I don't have a problem at all VAT being added

Does that make it OK? I wonder what you think the costs and benefits of this policy are? Have you noted that nobody else in the world taxes education - Greek Marxists tried for a short time, it caused entirely predictable chaos, and they gave it up?

[reallyworriedjobhunter]

Private schools are businesses operating on a 'for profit' basis and should pay VAT as other businesses do.

[MisterChips]

@reallyworriedjobhunter

Private schools are businesses operating on a 'for profit' basis and should pay VAT as other businesses do.

Oh my goodness.

They are businesses, like state schools. Everything with a balance sheet is a business. Charities are businesses too. And many private schools are both charities and businesses.

Only a few private schools operate for profit...like, less than 10pc. Mostly, they're charities or non-profits, which obliges them to reinvest their income or spend it on their charitable objects.

They "should pay VAT" as "other businesses? Like: tutoring, music lessons, sports clubs, private healthcare, before/after school clubs, residential summer camps, colleges and universities, books...and of course maintained schools. Do all those businesses pay VAT? Or do you think there's a reason they are all exempt from VAT - like education services in (checks notes) every country in the world?

[Jewel1968]

There is no VAT on children's clothes however if you have a tall child with large feet you are forced to buy adult shoes which has VAT on them. I find that annoying. How is that fair?

[Motheranddaughter]

I have no objection to this policy
I hope it’s only the start

[Dabralor]

I'll worry about these children after I've finished worrying about the ones with holes in their shoes, empty bellies and insecure housing.

[carmel1974]

Add VAT and channel the money raised into state education which almost 95% of U.K. children will benefit from. Go just a little tiny smidgeon towards redressing the balance. I despair of a system which perpetuates inequality and enables a massively disproportionate number of innately untalented and not particularly clever people to get into positions of power.

[MisterChips]

@Dabralor

I'll worry about these children after I've finished worrying about the ones with holes in their shoes, empty bellies and insecure housing.

"you don't make the poor richer by making the rich poorer".

What if this policy, as people keep saying, does nothing to help anyone?


@Jewel1968 @carmel1974 @Dabralor do you really think the country is better off, and the less well-off in particular, if you say to higher-earners "we object to you working your socks off and paying tens of £k in extra taxes while saving the state £8-12k per child. You should totally demand an unfunded non-existent state school place. Then you'll be able to earn £50k instead of £100k and put your feet up."

There's no bigger supporter of state education than higher earners who pay for their unused state school place, pay for everyone else's state school place (nobody earning <£40k pays nearly enough tax to fund public services for themselves, let alone anyone else), pay for the private school place they use and the £5.1bn tax it generates....

I get there's no pity, although the proposal will disrupt the education of (on the most optimistic estimates) tens of thousands of children.

Please could there also be no anger and envy, just a practical view of the consequences of this tax and rounded view of what we give and take in society?

[Ozanj]

Will they differentiate between private schools and extracurricular activities? If not then I’m guessing many schools will get around it by having short days and plugging everything else as extracurricular.

[carmel1974]

It's not about anger or envy, it's about wanting progress, working towards reducing the massive inequalities in society. I believe in a meritocracy, not a society run by people who aren't necessarily particularly bright or skilled or honest but who went to private school

[MisterChips]

@carmel1974

It's not about anger or envy, it's about wanting progress, working towards reducing the massive inequalities in society. I believe in a meritocracy, not a society run by people who aren't necessarily particularly bright or skilled or honest but who went to private school

Yep, anger and envy.

Anyone interested in opportunities and improving state schools would be more interested in what I wrote at 14:26 and in the fact that no other country taxes education.

But I get it. For some people the actual economic questions..."will this actually raise money (no) / does it justify the harm to children (no) / can the state sector cope (no) / if higher-earners stop being higher-earners does it matter (yes) / are there more sensible, predictable, less-distorting ways to raise money (yes)" aren't considerations for the "cost" side of this policy. They are the whole point.

It's not about supporting the state sector, which could be done more effectively in some dozens of better ways. It's about harming private schools.

Cut your nose to spite your face.

[carmel1974]

@MisterChips well consider it envy if it makes you feel better
The paltry number of people who've signed the petition over the last 6 months show that most of us don't have any problem in VAT being added

[twistyizzy]

I am quoting from an economist here
"The only other country in the world that tried this insane policy was Greece where it caused "general mayhem" according to The Economist.

The evidence for ind schools as a barrier to social mobility is non-existent. The basics are:
(1) they only observed correlation not causation
(2) they treat all ind schools the same, like all are dens of millionaires kids networking (3) they treat all state schools the same, like there's no exclusive networking or advantage in top state schools, and no difference between those and special measures schools
(4) they make no effort to explain WHY bad state schools are so bad at social mobility....I.e. lack of ambition, crap parenting in early years etc....let alone why that is ind schools "fault". "

The most recent research pours a lot of doubt on the IFS report which is the report Labour base their policy on. The actual income will be massively under the oft quoted 1.5 billion and, depending on behaviour changes of private parents, could actually bring in less than 1 billion (some extreme profiles suggest a negative after administration costs and off setting are taken into account).

It is purely a populist "sock it to the wealthy" policy with very little common sense behind it. Unfortunately the sound bite is good and that's what people buy into without looking at the negative impact on state schools.

[twistyizzy]

@carmel1974

@MisterChips well consider it envy if it makes you feel better
The paltry number of people who've signed the petition over the last 6 months show that most of us don't have any problem in VAT being added

It is easy to dismiss it if you have good local state schools. Many parts of the UK don't (especially the Nprth as norhrrem schools don't get as much funding as those in London/south) so the choices are dire state school or private.
Most counties aren't grammar counties.
It would cost us over £150k to relocate to am area with better state schools OR we pay 75K (,total) for private school. Which would YOU choose for your child? We are WC parents in the NE England, both work full time and pay fees out of our wages. VAT penalises us for just wanting a decent education for our children.

[carmel1974]

The fact that a tiny minority of privately educated men and women are able to vastly disproportionately access the top jobs, and often cling onto them even if they're incompetent, would suggest that private education does contribute to the massive social inequalities. It doesn't mean there aren't other factors too.

I can well believe some people are comfortable with the status quo and have no desire to see change!

[Tel12]

@carmel1974

The fact that a tiny minority of privately educated men and women are able to vastly disproportionately access the top jobs, and often cling onto them even if they're incompetent, would suggest that private education does contribute to the massive social inequalities. It doesn't mean there aren't other factors too.

I can well believe some people are comfortable with the status quo and have no desire to see change!

Just what I came here to say.

[Splitsplats]

Those of you considering private school might find the following interesting: My daughter left a private school last year and after speech day I somehow got into conversation with the chairman of the governors. He told me that the school knew for a fact that a large number of parents would not be able to afford the VAT increase and the school’s best chance of survival was if the other local private schools closed so they could “mop up” the displaced students and become “the last private school standing” in the area. Their strategy so far has been to increase the student roll as far as possible by becoming less selective - taking students who would otherwise have gone to the traditionally less academic local private schools. (This particularly applies to the 6th form which has swelled massively in the last couple of years.) These extra numbers would act as “padding” when the numbers started to drop off, he said. Delightful, isn’t it?

[anonhop]

The policy isn't about helping state schools/ other services (it will almost certainly harm them).
It's a "if I can't have it, they shouldn't be able to have it" attitude.

Parents of kids at private school who are displaced will;

• take up state school places
• buy houses in areas of best state schools (pushing out other families)
• spend their money on private tutors, extra curricular, meaning their kids are still just as advantaged as they would've been otherwise.

[twistyizzy]

@carmel1974

The fact that a tiny minority of privately educated men and women are able to vastly disproportionately access the top jobs, and often cling onto them even if they're incompetent, would suggest that private education does contribute to the massive social inequalities. It doesn't mean there aren't other factors too.

I can well believe some people are comfortable with the status quo and have no desire to see change!

You are talking about the Eton level private schools, the majority of private schools are local, small independents that don't have amazing old boys network or bestow advantages. But I guess it is easy to get sucked into that stereotype amongst all the hype.
You think the specialist SEN private schools bestow privilege?

[Lairig]

If Donald Trump were British and he promised to abolish all Public Schools, especially Boarding Schools, then I'd vote for him. VAT? You have no idea of the strength of feeling on this.

[twistyizzy]

@Lairig

If Donald Trump were British and he promised to abolish all Public Schools, especially Boarding Schools, then I'd vote for him. VAT? You have no idea of the strength of feeling on this.

So what happens to the private school kids ij your scenario? They will move to the best state schools and take places away from poorer kids, the parents will pay for tutors and thereby bestow an advantage. Private parents won't put their kids in under performing schools. Grammar places will be swallowed up etc.
You simply can not get rid of wealth that buys advantage. Why do you think some state schools don't already have a network of advantage merely through the demographic of kids who go there? Not all state schools are in deprived areas and many wealthy parents send their kids state.
Advantage comes from the family NOT the school unless you are talking about Eton which most private kids don't attend.

[JessS1990]

@Lairig

If Donald Trump were British and he promised to abolish all Public Schools, especially Boarding Schools, then I'd vote for him. VAT? You have no idea of the strength of feeling on this.

Polling such as this gives us some idea of the strength of feeling on the subject.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/majority-support-labours-plan-to-end-private-schools-vat-exemption