Iris' Iris's ..

[tulipsunday]

Which is correct or both?

Iris' hat

Iris's hat

Thanks. Did google it but read different answers so still not completely sure.

Fair question! How to tell between Moses and Gemma Collins? It’s a puzzler alright.

I’d go for The GC’s programme.

Ooh yes, good point!

But is that related to the fact that the “s” is a plural I wonder? (Rather than just part of the name)

I was taught that it doesn't matter., both are equally correct.

Bridget Jones's Diary and Bridget Jones' Diary are both correct. Helen Fielding uses the former.

St Thomas’ in London, but St James’s in Leeds. Who knows.

I spell it like I say it.

I use Iris's as it belongs to one Iris, not many.

(Unless you are talking a something that belongs to lots of people called Iris, and then it's Iris'!)

I’m exactly the same.

I was told to write it as you would say it, so Iris's hat.

Another convention (was Oxford style, may have been updated) was that it's 's with most names, but just ' with what were described as classical names.

I'd imagine it existed largely to accommodate the many Greek and Latin names ending -es or us, which were then also not pronounced with an extra syllable they would never have had in their original language.

So Augustus' degree, Aristophanes' text etc, with Latinised or Hellenicized names like Jesus and Moses following the same pattern.

Names that had been domesticated and occur in English too - Thomas'(s) are particularly likely to appear in both form.

This might be the origin of the "famous people" convention above?

But this was never a rule, just one recommended style.

So it could be Iris', by this convention, as a Classical Greek name, or Iris's as an English version.

(But if you were talking about Iris' eye? You could have Iris' iris's colour)

If the ' is to replace a letter why would it be Iris's hat? There's no missing letter.
A teacher in the family used to put Thomas's on a card but using my logic I didn't see how it could be right.

As a sometimes pedant (I hate "different to" it should be "different from", for example) sometimes pedantry can go too far. As in, "this is the kind of thing up with which I will not put" instead of "I will not put up with this".

So if write whatever feels correct to you, and will not confuse your reader.

It’s not, it’s just indicating the possessive. Just as it would be with Tom’s hat.

Ah of course 😳

In an English exam, you would be expected to use Iris' not Iris's

So, to muddy the waters, what about if the item belongs to more than one Iris. So Iris and her friend Iris own a house together. Is it Iris’s house, Irises’s house or Iris’ house?

It would be nonsensical to mark anyone down in an exam for using either form. Both are valid.

Why? Is that taught as a rule, and if so what’s the authority for it?

It's the two Irises' house.

More than one of them so it's always going to end '.

Although in practice I think this is where most people collapse into Irisiziziziz mode ...

Subject is plural that ends in s - you only add apostrophe.

"The cats' toys."

Subject is singular that ends in s - you add ‘s.

Thomas's toys.

Say it out loud and it makes sense. We don't say "Thomas toys" or "the catses toys"

We do say in Jesus name and Pythagoras Theorem, though.

Either s's or s' are acceptable for all singular names ending in s.

@Looksgood

Ancient names are an exception. They are a very small exception to the rule.

And for names ending in a silent s the rule is to write as it is pronounced.

Descartes'
Louis'

It's not difficult and yet this topic comes up a lot on Mumsnet. People seem to find it difficult.

They're only exceptions by some style guides; not others.

I like the s's for modern, s' for ancient myself, but it isn't a rule.

It's calling things rules when they are not rules that causes confusion.

It's calling things rules when they are not rules that causes confusion.

It's certainly confusing when people just do as they please and say "both are fine".

All rules have exceptions. It stops being a rule when everyone flouts it, but it would be better if everyone followed the rule as it's not exactly difficult. Other than the occasional Pythagoras, you can answer the question of s' or s's by that saying it out loud.

It's just not a rule. Never has been.

Have a look here for example:

https://www.theguardian.com/science/article/2024/aug/14/kamala-harris-or-harriss-apostrophe-row-grammar-nerds

Editors give people "rules" to follow for consistency in their publications. This is a guide to style. It's not a rule for writing outside those publications.

For lots of things, there is only one correct way, or a usual way with well defined exceptions.

For apostrophe after s in a personal name, there has never been a consensus or a single "rule".