Would you punish a three year old who has just wrecked three room in a tantrum?

[Caligula]

3 year old DD has just had a wild tantrum precipitated by her desperate desire for control and my refusal to oblige her.

As usual, I just left her to get on with it and went and made dinner while she screamed and shouted upstairs. I figured she's safe and she'll eventually tire herself out and come downstairs.

Dinner's now ready (and going cold as I type) and so I went to fetch her (tantrum has lasted about 15 minutes.)

Papers, books, bedsheets, toys, towels, shampoo, all strewn all over the rooms and up and down the stairs. I'm tired and have a cold and it's going to take at least an hour to clear it all up again. I feel defeated by the mess.

Should I punish her and if so how, or should I accept that this behaviour is a challenging part of a tantrum?

(That word challenging - it always sounds like such an understatement, doesn't it!)

ff - You must have felt dreadful.

Do children really have to always learn to control themselves? I would have done the same as ff in those circumstances. Better than bottling it in.

I have to say I would have done the same. I actually think it's quite mature for a four year old to attempt to explain the feelings he must have had.

mmmh, then... I don't know, but the options are:
-Tell your DS that you and DD will need to tidy up so he will be watching the video on its own.
-Forget about the mess and and continue watching and commenting the video.
-Send DD to tidy up upstairs while you and DS watch the video.
-Forget about discipling her, watch the video and tidy up everything yourself once they have gone to sleep.

It's your call

i smack mine too, not all the time but i have when things have been dangerous, it isnt a secret I have said before

I have them 24 hrs a day 365days a year

i love my kids dearly I dont think it is abuse

When i was an awful mother, nobody knew, i was great and strong and had wonderful kids, they didn't know i was sick beyond belief and didn't care. I didn't care. i wanted to be saved, my kids were looking at me longingly and i wanted rid. I really think now, back to the original post, that when a child is angry they cant express what they mean and they mean no harrm

I agree with FF's DS tantrum, you can not expect a small child to control himself after such a change in his life. But I thought Caligula's DD case was slightly different. Appologies if I didn't explain myself correctly,

Sit down and watch the film with DS,while DD tides up, make sure you point out to her that he's getting Mummy's attention because he's been a good boy.

Got you Chandra. Thought it sounded a bit harsh, but I'm wih you now

Can your 3 year old tidy up by herself? Mine is utterly hopeless if left alone. Too much needing done to make sense of it. I have to direct her... Let's put these in this box. OK now you do the stickle bricks.

Maybe I have been lax in their training

OK I gave him the choice and he's watching it downstairs while we're upstairs tidying the office first. He said he'll rewind it back for me later!

I've just told her that she's got to continue picking up all the papers and putting them in one neat pile, while Mummy asks the ladies on the internet what to do about her tantrum!!!

Caligula

A master stroke

MY DS calls you lot, the girls.....

No, you don't have to control yourself, but it's critical to learn how to release your emotions in a way that harms yourself and others as little as possible. For us it was to go out in the back green to 'cool off'. But I also grew up in a climate where it's warm year round so going outside and 'cooling off' by exercise was always possible.

I think it's good to teach children early that actions have consequences (as early as the individual child is able to understand the sequence 'if I do X then Y will happen'). Pitched at the childs level and always calmly and well-thought out, of course.

Let the child know what the consequence for their action is and the reason for the consequence, and let the child accept the consequence if that is their choice (within reasonable safety limits, of course!!)

I've been reading about natural and logical consequences in my neverending search for calm and good ways to control my kids!!!!

(pasting here!!)
"Natural consequences allow children to learn from the natural order of the world. For example, if the child doesn't eat, he will get hungry. If the child doesn't do homework, he will get a low grade. The parent allows unpleasant, but natural, consequences to happen when a child does not act in a desirable way.

Logical consequences are arranged by parents. The consequence must logically follow the child's behavior. For example, not having clean clothes to wear is a logical consequence of not placing dirty clothes in the basket."

Consequences teach responsibility and I don't think it helps a child to not have a consequence for their behaviour (good for good and bad for bad!).

But also, kids are entitled to have and to express feelings, and it's not about refusing to allow them the right to be angry or upset - which would be very wrong and very damaging to them - more about helping them to learn that they have a perfect right to their feelings but there is a right and a wrong way to express them.

Personally I hate this part of being a parent. It's soooooooooo hard!!!!!

That's good Caligula, now she knows that other people know what she's done as well. I firmly believe that children should learn there are consequences to bad behavior. Having her help clean up may be sufficient - and, of course apologize for messing things up in the first place.

I have to say, especailly if this type of tantrum is unusual, I'd have let it go after the time out pumishment in her room. I can't say I ever expected much independent tidying up from my sons when they were 3 years old. I think you have done well to get your dd to help you tidy up while your ds watches the video. I can't imagine my son at that age would have done that. I might have sent him to his room for a second time, but all tidying up would have been done by me. I would find it way too stressful to get a wound up 3 year old to tidy up with me.

The mess would have affected me in two ways - either rising anger, in which case, best to have some space from my child and not interact too much for a while. This would negate the helping mummy to tidy up method.

If I didn't feel that angry I would have felt helpless and totally tired. I would have given in to it, had the meal, watched the video with both children, cuddled them and sorted out the mess another day.

I think it doesn no harm to sometimes back down from battles at this age - if your dd routinely messed three room, that's another matter.

I think there are many years ahead to learn about consequences. You can be more flexible when children are very little.

Well I told her the ladies on the internet were very disappointed with her behaviour, and had said she was not allowed in Mummy's office anymore unless she asked first. She was very contrite and embarrassed at the thought of anyone else knowing.

I'm not sure if this is habitual behaviour or not. She's a total control freak and has to be distracted out of tantrums quite often, but there are times when I just have to accept that one is going to happen. She usually finds a strategy to calm down without losing face though, and I'm a bit worried that this new escalation tactic might be one she decides to go with - if so, then time out just won't be a realistic technique anymore.

hope your fears about a repeat performance are ungrounded - you're just going to have to watch and see. Is she at pre school or nursery yet

Wow, some great advice on this thread. This will comein handy when DS's proto-tantums (he's 10 months) turn into the real thing.

Hope your feeling better now Caligula. And you now have another excuse not to do any work tomorrow! Yippee!

Take care. x

Yes. Three days a week at nursery. I hope I've made enough of a song and dance about this to discourage her from repeating it.

Does she get that from you or dad?

hope so too. As she's learning rules of behaviour from the nursery staff as well as from your good example, and getting lots of experience of teamwork and tidying up in a big group, the message should be sinking in fast.

Unfortunately, me!

I'm trying not to have the same reaction as my mother...

there's always the possiblity that she's sickening for something or just really tired. MY children, even now, are at their most unreasonable when they are under the weather.