problem with cubs

[tigermoth]

I am feeling really annoyed this morning with both my son and his cub troop leaders.

Yesterday when I picked up my son from cubs the leader told me at great length he had been messing around in the session. He wasn't the only one, but he was apparently the worst. Consequently he won't be allowed to go to a cook out on Sunday or attend the annual weekend camp they are holding soon. I was quite shocked to say the least, and both dh and myself had words to say to my son when we got home.

However, before cubs yesterday, my son had a great day at school, no bad points and lots of good points, and had played very nicely with a friend at home (another cub). When I dropped both boys off at the scout hut, my son was really looking forward to the session. So I was surprised to find his behaviour had deteriorated so much in just over an hour.

I am usually happy to reinforce the cub leaders discipline procedures. I ask how my son has behaved every single time I pick him up, so I know has goes to many sessions (especially in the last months) when he is either OK or good. I know my son can be challenging and I nearly took him out of cubs six months ago, because he seemed to be losing interest and so becoming naughtier than usual, but the cub leader phoned me and said how much he wanted my son to perservere and come back. I let my son make the final decision - he wanted to keep at it and in fact has been very enthusiastic about attending the activities.

In the past I have been in total agreement over the leader's discpline measures - ie my son had to miss a trip to Thorpe Park for messing around at a sports day and he was only allowed to attend half the session for three weeks to reinforce the good behavior message. This has all been fine by me. Good behaviour is a health and safety issue after all.

However I am now feeling that these discipline measures are getting heavy handed and inappropriate and it's not just my son who is being punished. Whenever the leader talks to me, it is done in front of other parents who are collecting their sons. The leader cannot go into a private room because he has to keep a watch on the pack, I understand this, but he does tend to go on and on at length. Even if other parents cannot hear what is being said I am sure they get the general idea. This coupled with the fact that my son is the only cub to be excluded from events makes his problems really public. After yesterday I am beginnnig to think that the leaders have decided that he has to earn the right to go on activities - he is not automatically invited. Considering that the cubs are not angels, I am beginning to feel my son is being singled out unfairly. I am all for punishing bad behaviour in the session, and telling me about it so I can further punish at home if necessary - I just feel cross that the punishment is being carried on outside and in public. Everyone will know the reason for my son not attending events and it stops my son and I being able to integrate happily with the troop.

I have noticed that parents now never offer to give my son lifts to and from events. When my son went to Beavers, these same parents did offer lifts from time to time. Many times I have turned up to collect my son and seen other local parents take a car load of cubs back - with space for one more. When I am waiting around with them I often overhear them arranging lifts togther etc but no one asks me, or rarely says hello to me. I know they would take my son if I asked or say hello if I smile, but I really am getting a bit paranoid. Why should I always be first? These are parents of boys in my son's class at school who have been to playdates and parties at our home. We are not strangers. I went to an AGM meeting recently and not one parent came to say hello to me. I am just getting fed up with making the effort.

I am also cross that the leaders, apart from my son's own pack leader, won't talk to me directly if my son has been misbehaving. If they are happy to look after my son during an activity day, I think they should be happy to tell me if he's been good when I collect him. Yesterday I was told that my son had also messed around when he did his cyclists badge last weekend. He was in the care of other pack leaders, but no one came up to tell me he had been less than good. My son had told me the day went OK, and still maintains that he wasn't told off, so how am I to know there are problems and how can I deal with them myself? Apparently his name was mentioned when they had a pack leader meeting and that was the reason why he's been excluded from the weekend camp event. I just get the impression that pack leaders are talking behind my back and have labelled my son as a troublemaker wiht a question mark over his attendance at any cub event, and it makes me really cross. Other cubs get punished in the sessions themselves. If my son needs extra discipline then there are all sorts of other methods they could use, I'd have thought - like setting him an extra task, making him write lines at home with me, or letting him earn extra points for his six if he is good, etc.

The pack leader is going to phone me to discuss this further. He knows I am not happy with this method of disclipine and very cross that other pack leaders won't talk about my son to my face. Any thoughts on what I should suggest? I am really fed up with this.

Well I (or rather a series of mumsnetters) have now spoken to the cub leader on the phone and then my ds.

I started off by saying I wanted to discuss why, when my ds when misbeving at cubs he was then often excluded from events. Having talked to other cub leaders (thanks Rainbow, Morph, Lindy, Robinw and co) I knew that this is not common practice and went against the cub ethos and I felt uneasy that he was doing this.

The leader readily agreed it was common practice and said he didn't like doing it either but had tried everything else ie sitting ds or other naughty cubs apart from the rest. He has threatened other cubs with exclusion, too, but not as much as my ds. He didn't mention that he set cubs specific tasks if they were bad.

I explained that ds was eager to go to cubs, and the leader agreed with that. He could see he enjoyed it. He said the problem was one of supervision - he had his hands full with my ds (and other boys if they played up) which meant he then couldn't do his cub leading properly. That was why he was having to think twice now about my ds attending events - he just couldn't rely on him to behave.

I then asked if it would help if I came along to meetings or events and helped out? (thanks Lindy and SueW). The answer was no, he didn't think my presence would make my son behave better long term. (I can't commit to weekly sessions on a long term basis either). Even short term, over the next few weeks got a 'no'. So I asked if my husband could help?(thanks RobinW). Again the leader said no - it's really because we are ds's parents. He said what would help him is if an older brother or cousin could sit with my ds at cubs and help him focus. Unfortunately we do not have such a person to call on.

I then asked if there was anything I could do with my ds outside cubs that would help? The cub leader already knows dh and I give my son a good talking to, or take away toys or ground him if we get a bad report from cubs. We've been doing this ever since he started Beavers, as and when necessary. But should we punish more? I asked. (thanks robinw), had he any parenting suggestions to pass on to us?(thanks robinw).The leader said no. He knew we had been backing up his decisions at home for ages and he said (with a bitter laugh) that it hadn't worked so far.

Having reached a stalemate on parental involvment, I asked the cub leader how he and other leaders warn ds about exclusion, and whether ds alone gets excluded or singled out generally, talking through ds's version of the bike badge day. (thanks custardo and others) The leader said it was his decision alone to ban ds from camp, nothing to do with the bike badge day. OK, fair enough, I must have misunderstood. He did say that ds's name does crop up amongst leaders, just becasue he can be so naughty and yes, there is nervousness about including him in things and yes, it can seem he is singled out, but then some of the other boys feel my ds gets off lightly and that they are singled out too (oh, the joys of being a cub leader!)

I asked how aware is ds made of this (threat to exclude)? Now this is when the story diverges. According to the cub leader, ds (and any other boys) are given plenty of warnings. Ds had been warned that he might miss the camp if he did not behave. According to ds, he did get a warning about not going to camp at the end of the last meeting while he was sitting apart. He remained sitting apart till I collected him 15 minutes later. I was then told ds wouldn't be going to camp. ie ds was warned but had no time to improve his behaviour. So not fair on the surface. I asked ds if he had had any other warnings about camp - after some probing he said not going to camp had been mentioned as a general warning to groups of boys if they played up, but no specific warnings to him as in 'ds if you don't stop running around the hall and kicking that football right now, you will not be going to camp.' I don't know who is right, ds or cub leader, but certainluy think ds is not sufficiently aware of warnings. When a teacher or I warn ds, he knows he has been warned, no mistake. This might need clarifying with the cub leader.

One of my son's major failings is not being able to work well in groups. Since I don't have a gaggle of 8 year olds to look after (thankfully), I don't exactly know what he does, so can't offer insight. I sugggested the leader spoke to his teacher about this, she copes somehow and ds joins in with group work better, I hear. He still has to work alone at times, though, and when he does, he completes the task he is set. I suggested that ds works alone at cubs, too, but the leader says this is not possible - all activities are team based.

Apart from putting the cub leader in contact with my son's teacher, I don't think there's more I can do.

So I told the cub leader that while I and dh would make an increased effort to support cubs generally, I would be leaving the cub discipline decisons to him and my ds. (thanks and thanks again scummy). As long as things are done fairly (thanks custardo) I would not intervene. I will not be asking how my son behaved after each session, though the leader can phone me up at any time if he wants to and I have an open ear for my son. I will not be disciplining my son at home for being bad in cubs, but neither will I persuade him to stay or query fair discipline procedure, even if it means he gets expelled. The leader, bless him, said he had never thought of expelling my ds.

I think the leader was a bit surprised at my decision - I think he had me down as a very involved mother - but I honestly don't see what else dh or I can do.

The cub leader is young, it's his first pack and he has been leading for just over a year. Sadly it's his relative inexperience versus my son's challenging behaviour. Just for the record, my son attended Beavers for two years without being excluded once. The leader was very experienced and she had a weekly rota of parents who helped. Personally I think this cub leader should set up a rota, too. Many parents can give the odd week of help even if they can't go regularly. The cub leader does have a proper helper, but says there is still a supervision problem centered around my son and a few others. Even if my son and the others left the pack, some bigger, badder and even meaner boys could join, so the problem won't be solved by exclusion. But I've offered my help, made my suggestions, even mentioned having a weekly parents rota - all met with a 'no', so what more to do?

reading the last few messages I have still got more things to add but am in a rush now so will stop.

second paragraph should read 'not common practice'

Doesn't sound as if the Cub scout Leader can work on his own. We were crying out for parental help just a few months ago and we met with a NO. Too busy with johnny's football, Bobby's drama group etc. They are cubs/scouts too!!!!!!!!

I can't understand why he thinks parental help is no good and it should be an older brother. I have found older brothers/cousins etc to make matters worse, the child tends too 'show off' when they're around.

Keep trying

thanks, rainbow, I will keep offering to help on a rota basis. I feel that this cub leader, committed as he is, is trying to prove himself as a leader, too. Perhaps he sees adding a parent rota as a sign of failure on his part? I slim possiblity, I know, but I am baffled by his refusal of help.

janh, sounds like your ds is having a very busy time, if he is also spending weekends working towards a Duke of Endinburgh's Award, and with the same teacher who decides placements - glad they have made things up and have reached an understanding. Just goes to show how many facets there can be to an adult/child relationship in real life. And how this can't be easily conveyed, and therefore subject to judgement, in an internet discussion.

Robinw I find it interesting that in a way you and scummy are saying the same thing - ie leave the child to face the consequences of their behaviour, let the adult leader and child work it out for themselves. But whereas scummy says it's not automatically the parent's fault that their child is challenging, especially with older children and teenages who are deveolping a mind of thier own, your messages suggest that the parent must ultimately take the blame for their child's challenging behaviour whatever their age. I cannot agree with this. If this is your line, we have a fundamental differance of opinion.

Tigermoth - I am sure that the reason the Cub Scout Leader doesn't want parental help is because he is young & inexperienced & probably feels 'threatened' by parents ..... that's not an excuse though; he really shouldn't turn down any offers of help. I know when I first became a Leader (as opposed to Assistant Leader) it was pretty daunting relating to 'parents' when you were in your mid twenties! Actually, I often found it daunting dealing with some parents as I got towards my 40s !! I've been really interested in all these comments but just glad I'm taking a break from being a leader for a few years - guess I'll probably resume when my DS join (if he wants to - but really hope he does); although then I'll be a really ancient leader in my early 50s - yikes!!!!!! Just like those old fuddy, duddy leaders I used to scorn when I first joined.

tigermoth, I am so impressed with the detail in your post! Presumably you not only wrote down all the helpful suggestions from here but also his responses? (or did you just bug your phone?)

Anyway it sounds as if you have covered every possible option and, I hope, made him think a bit more about how he organises his cubs. He obviously could do with extra bodies about at cub nights, but if he won't let parents help and there isn't anybody else it's no wonder he gets stressed!

Not surprised he "had you down as a very involved mother" - you are!

The "threat to exclude" business is interesting - parallels with my DS here again. He maintains that he was only warned specifically once, very near the end of the week, that he would be in trouble if he didn't change his attitude, and apparently by that time at least one vet had already made up his mind that he had to go. So he had probably had non-specific warnings before then, and your DS is probably the same at cubs - the "responsible adult" thinks the point has been made when in fact it hasn't as far as the child is concerned. (You would think a 14-yr-old would be a bit more perceptive, but obviously not in our case!)

I hope your handing over of responsibility to the leader will make him be more careful in what he says to your DS when there is a behavioural issue.

Cubs are at a very tricky age. Beavers are generally still in the infants and tend to be run by women who are much like infant teachers (in fact when DS1 was in the Beavers the leader was one of the NTAs from his reception class, and DS2 had the mother of a girl a couple of years above him in school) who they are accustomed to being good for. By the time they are in Scouts they are older, and hopefully a bit saner, they do really interesting things most of the time and the leaders are more mature. Cubs seem to be extremely boisterous, fairly immune to authority and just generally hard work!

Disregarding the unwelcoming attitude of the other parents, is there one or more you would feel comfortable discussing this with, with a view to possibly petitioning the more senior leaders about providing more support at the cub sessions? (Without in any way undermining the cub leader, of course!) (This is like politics!)

re the not working well in groups - again mine was like this and was never allowed to sit with those he wanted to sit with in class, but the end result seemed to be that frustration made him behave even worse - and he tended to take it out on those he was forced to sit with instead. (The joys of being a teacher, never mind a cub leader!)

Oh, tigermoth, I do hope you can sort it all out so he doesn't have to miss anything!

Mine joined Cubs for the first time tonight and they were doing experiments with matches!

Scummymummy - great post, I hope I remember when my own ds is at that stage.
janh and tigermoth, hope all gets resolved with your ds's soon, good luck

janh, no I didn't write down the cub leaders responses, but it was a very lo...oooooong conversation. I hope I have got his side of the story right. He is really caring and committed - I really feel for him and am very sad that my son is giving him such a hard time.

He did briefly moot the suggestion I could possibly sit with my son in cub meetings - I think he felt someone has to - but also realised that this is not really a good or realistic idea. As he went on to say, however much I hover, what happens when I am not there? And also my son will behave differently when I am around, anyway. Funnily enough my son also suggested I went with him just to see how he is treated. I think he hopes I will be an avenging angel on his behalf. Not a role I intend to take on.

I think you are so right about my ds an your ds not always taking in a warning. My son will grasp any reason to ignore its significence. Something his cub leaders need to be aware of.

Interesting what you say about cubs being more challenging than scouts, too. I had heard it was the other way round what with scouts going through puberty etc. Apparently in our troop, scout leaders are notoriously hard to recruit. However when I see the cubs in our section, they do seem to be horribly immune to discipline and wonderously boisterous. Surely (she asks with trembling voice) the scouts can't be worse?

Sobernow, yes, I remember our talk on Tuesday (hope you had a good journey home, too). I so much agree that cub leaders have to earn respect and perhaps my son can sense this one is nervous and inexperienced, though oh my goodness, he means so well.

I will try and gently find out if other parents feel that the cub leader has taken on too much. My son has a birthday party soon and I will get a chance to chat. I will throw the idea of a parent rota up in the air and see who responds.

Lindy, I am beginning to understand why you are glad of the rest from cub leadership. Looking after a toddler must be a doddle compared to it.

Rhiannon, matches and cubs, ha ha!

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ah - puberty - mmmm. DS2 was in Scouts for a while when aged 11-13ish, I was never aware of any particularly challenging behaviour from the older boys but then I suppose I wouldn't be. They did things like water sport days on Lake Windermere and were possibly too busy for tantrums.

Depends on the leader again, maybe - a friend of mine's son lost a tooth when the leader had them all running around the hall like idiots IN THE DARK!!!!! (What was he thinking of???)

On the other hand, DH takes DS and his mates for football - he runs an under-15 team, though DS is one of the youngest, many of them will be 16 in the autumn, huge strapping lads with deeeep voices - and they can be proper hooligans, have to be kept well under the thumb if poss.

Rhiannon, I am staggered about the matches too!!! What are these people on?

No no no, not DS2, DS1, sorry!

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robinw, have to dash but will come back to this soon.

thanks for your thoughts robinw - as you've pointed out, seeing exactly what my son does when he is part of a group, without being seen by him is not easy - a bit like bird watching

Most of the cub group are made up of his schoolmates - many are in his class. Some of them are friends and have been round here on playdates. When my son is with them at home - he normally has just one or two - the group are usually absolutely fine and if they or my ds are naughty, it is not abnormally so. Same story when he goes to these boys houses on playdates - my ds is fine on the whole - he can't be awful anyway because he gets invited back.

At school, the boys might get loud and boisterous, but don't physically fight each other or go really wild. I have seen far worse behaved groups of boys at my son's last school - his 7th birthday party will forever stick in my mind.

But of course on a playdate or at a party my ds is not having to complete a task set for the group - he is just there to enjoy himself and keep out of mischief, so it's easier than being in cubs.

But what I'm saying is as as cub groups go, these boys have some practice of behaving OK with each other. His teacher has written me a quick note to pass on the the cub leader - my son is easier in groups if he is taken to one side before a team activity and specifically reminded what he must do and rewarded afterwards for doing it. That's how she deals with this and tells me it is sucessful, so I will pass the message on.

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I've been really impressed by this thread - one of the best. Very thought provoking, and lots of real thought taking place, and informing the discussion, being accepted, being rejected, with no flouncing. Maybe Brownies would hang onto us all now! Congratulations to you all: it's been a real treat to take part in, even just as a reader. Love the intelligent sympathy for those poor awkward teenagers - I just hope I can copy it! Have copied Scummymummy's advice to take to heart.

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when my ds1 doesn't understand what is expected of him (he has language problems) he just pretends not to understand anything- totally refuses to make eye contact or anything. He certianly wouldn't ask (not that he could- what I mean is that he refuses to play ball and ignores all attempts at explanations).

When I lived in Japan, if I didn't understand what I was meant to be doing I didn't ask either- just waited to see what happened. My son often reminds me of my response there - I recognise what he is doing. Sometimes if you have misundersood and make an assumption you end up being "found out" and believe me that is embarrassing, I think asking for further explanation is a very unnatural thing to do.

Hearing problems could make things difficult. Maybe an individual explanation each time would help tremedously.

At the cub leader's request, he met my son for a one to one chat. They have apparently asked each other what the other expects of them and laid down some rules. Before the chat I suggested to my son that he ask the cub leader to warn and instruct him more clearly. This was duly done.

As you say robinw, my son's hearing problem might well be a factor in this - having said that, he can hear OK out of one ear. And as you say, I agree, you can't use not too good hearing as an excuse, especially since my son behaves well in groups sometimes. Some time ago at school his teacher promised to make warnings and instructions very clear for him in case he hadn't heard. If my son is naughty at school, he never ever complains that he didn't hear the teacher, so I have assumed that the teacher has spoken to him clearly.

To answer you and jimjams - I don't know if my son is too ashamed/embarassed to ask for an instrution to be repeated. It's a very interesting point and I will ask my son if this is so.

The cub leader and my son also agreed that he can read if he is told to sit alone - he likes reading and I think some of the naughtness is down to boredom. He is to bring a reading book to cubs and if he feels he is getting told off and can't stop himself, he can go away from the group and read instead.

My son is a sociable and exciteable boy and, thinking about it more, I have my suspicians that he sees cub meetings as glorified playdates, a great way of playing with his schoolfriends out of school and away from parents, messing around, letting off steam, going just a little bit further than he is allowed to go at school. While he likes cubs, the rules and ethos are secondary to the fun he thinks he will have. Somehow he needs to adjust his view a little and respect his cub leader more. Hope this happens.

tigermoth- my mum is deaf in one ear- and she often finds it hard to hear when there is a lot of background noise. Is the cub hall noisier or more echoey than school? Maybe that could make a difference?

I'm know that when I was in Japan the not asking wasn't really on purpose- I just didn't iyswim. I noticed this when I came back to the UK and started a PhD- i was so used to not asking I carried on like that and it actually became a real problem. So I was only aware I was doing that after I returned. I've become more aware when I see my son behaving in exactly the same way!

Ancient thread I know, but I was seeking help from the other side. Feel free to hit me up with your zombie emojis!

I am a full time working mum of 2, one has additional needs. I am fucking knackered. Became a scout leader to support my ADHD kid. 5 years in now. It’s mostly good but I HATE the entitled parents who view me as their staff. A few of them speak to me like shit, and one has been told yo go and f themselves. NONE of us gets fuck all reward for this, it’s the worst kind of drudgery (to reiterate, kids are great. Parents we get some entitled twats). On the brink of resigning due to stress and exhaustion. It’s shit labour, unpaid, treated like a skivvy.

It’s a charity and we are all volunteers. If you know a better way of doing it, I guarantee you’d be a local hero. We are a bunch of unpaid stressed out parents dealing with our own shit, and all we want is HELP!
if your kid needs more, then who better to step in that the one who knows him best?!