Let's have it all please - The National Childbirth Trust

[Rhiannon]

Lil, Croppy et al. The NCT is a national organisation there are over 400 branches. New branches being set up in Northern Ireland and Dundee at the moment. They are all over London. Everyone at your local NCT is a volunteer if you volunteer your services to set up a working Mum's group or any other type of group within the branch, I know they will be very grateful. If you don't like the women at the local branch go to the next one up the road it's not a problem. If you are having problems let me know where you are and I'll find out the contact names and numbers for you. Ask if they have Bumps and Babes which is a group especially to introduce people. As you can tell I am passionate about the NCT (I am not left wing or a veggie, I don't wear beads and I didn't even breast feed!). We welcome all newcomers so if you live near junction 25 of the M25 you are very welcome. Phew! Or just call head office on 0208 992 8637 for more advice.

What a mixed experience of NCT....if you have a good, or bad, experience of NCT workers or groups, tell them! All bfcs and a/n teachers work under supervision, and have tutors. Tutors themselves supervise each other. Postnatal groups work under the branch's banner, and if someone is made to feel unwelcome, then the branch postnatal co-ordinator should know. It sounds as if the bfc who gave such apparently useless support was using a technique which feeds back a summary of the concern to the mother, but it has to be used appropriately! She may have been a new bfc, or even a trainee - but when bfcs or other workers fall short, something needs to happen. I would hate anyone to be put off contacting NCT because of these experiences, when I know the machinery exists to make sure they don't happen again.

But NCT can't put stuff right if they don't know what's happening in their name. I should declare an interest - I am a bfc and a tutor. I have had to deal with situations where a bfc's approach was questioned, and I hope I have helped. On one of the occasions, it was a total misunderstanding, but maybe the counsellor was partly at fault. On another occasion, the mother did not realise we were all unpaid volunteers and not able to offer a 24-hour home visiting service. Other issues have been the bfc is 'never in'. People can now call 0870 444 8708 and get a bfc at any time on the phone between 8 am and 10pm, every day, yes, including Bank Holidays and Xmas day!

SueW and Starling, your stories make me sick!. How anybody who has a child can be indifferent to a disabled child is utterly beyond me. My level of compassion has increased a hundred-fold since having a baby. I also find it absolutely extraordinary that people at a playgroup wouldn't make an extra special effort to involve a blind woman. What a terrible example to set for the children.

I found the NCT to be completely useless after giving birth. Whilst my local branch was happy to take my money for ante-natal classes they didn't even have a current bumps and babies set up! When women already in the local group had new babies, they took them only to their older children's group. This situation had existed for 2-3 years before I joined I and ended up setting up the bumps and babies group myself so that my antenatal group, and the two before it and after it, could meet after we had given birth. None of us ever felt welcome by the existing clique though and now our children are all 2,3 and 4 we still meet but not under the banner of the NCT. Other new mums told me that they had wanted to start/join in with groups in this branch but been cold-shouldered as the existing women were very cosy without them. If I had the energy immediately post-natal I would have complained to Head Office. The NCT was a deeply disappointing experience (and I didn't have pnd - pity anyone who had).

I've just had my form for renewal of membership to the NCT. Instead of just binning it, I actually wrote to Head Office to complain (constructively of course!). If all the members on this board all wrote, it might help the next lot of NCT mums.

I'll let you know if I get a reply!

Lil - could I ask what your constructive complaint was ?

It's not just the NCT. In my experience, mother and toddler groups tend to be cliquey and unwelcoming to anyone who looks different from them. I haven't any personal experience of the disability side (though I really sympathise - why can't people realise that that is an ordinary child), but I am thinking of mums who don't speak English, but have small babies and are stuck in the house all day. But this is where the NCT could do some good - being a national organisation they could make sure that all their groups welcomed EVERYBODY. It is the social duty of everyone going to any mother and toddler group to mix with everyone else present, especially newcomers and especially people who might find any problem talking to other people, and the NCT could make a particular point of emphasising this.

NCT does train its volunteers, and all workers on the postnatal side are encouraged to take on training....but please don't forget, postnatal workers are volunteers, offering their time, and often their houses, free. Often, they are not actually workers, but members wanting to help out occasionally by offering hospitality. This is not an excuse for people feeling unwelcome by a clique of cosy mothers, but it does explain why the cosy clique thing sometimes happens...and, of course, it's not confined to NCT. The coldest social experience of my early motherhood was going to a toddler group with someone I'd met casually at the nursery my daughter went to, being dumped by her when we got to the church hall, and sitting on my own for two hours while everybody got on and talked to someone else. When I made social overtures of my own, there was no more than a monosyllabic response.

Again, yes, branches (or regions, or National HQ) should be told when someone has a bad experience, so NCT can put it right. But don't be too outraged about it. Bear in mind NCT is a charity, people on the ground work in it for nothing, are mostly well-motivated and often pressured with their own family concerns...and do want to do their best.

TicTok, can I ask a question, bearing in mind the bad experiences I have been reading about?

Are NCT members and organisers ever asked to leave or change their approach due to complaints about the way they run things? Being a charity, I think it's right that the NCT accepts it has some social duty to welcome and support each member. After all many new mothers are in a pretty vulnerable state. As you say though, members are volunteers too, and so it must be very difficult to 'discipline' them.

I've had no experience whatsoever of the NCT, I just wondered how this issue is resolved.

I'm really sad to see people have had such a poor time with the NCT. All I can say is, it is made up of members ie people like you and me and if the people like you and me just leave and moan then it can't change. Yes the NCT nationally has published policies on welcoming all parents and children. What we can't legislate for and rely on people to feedback is where individuals do not work within the spirit of the NCT. The UK office and its regional teams do take complaints very seriously.

The NCT is the sum of its parts. If you don't take part then you can't be part of the sum. Some people, members, those NCT people, might find it incredibly hard to strike up a conversation with a new member. We probably all feel more comfortable with people we know BUT it is the responsibility of the local committee to ensure that cliques are dealt with. However a lot of committees which are comprised of just ordinary women, like you and me, are often overwhelmed with just keeping the essential services like classes going. Its very dispiriting to start a bumps and babes group going and then noone turns up so if its not on in your area its probably because everyone has gone back to work and the ones who were going have moved on to toddler groups. Start another one. Start a branch if you need to. We're not all hairy horrors )

As for antenatal classes and breastfeeding counselling, I teach one and am training for the other so I am probably way too biased to comment but the only reason I am doing it is because the NCT helped me to prepare for the birth of my baby and to feed my children. Now I'm giving something back. If you have an unsatisfactory experience with a trained worker then NCT would also like to hear from you. Like any organisation we can only weed out unhelpful people if we know about them. But PLEASE do not tar us all with the same brush. I am sure you have come across rubbish GP's, midwives, teachers etc but would not dream of putting them all down as a profession. I am trained to teach the facts not my opinion and to counsel not to judge.

I would just like to say that I have limited experience of NCT but I recently contacted a breastfeeding counsellor and she was brilliant!

I live in London and don't have much of a mums' social network yet (perhaps because I didn't go to antenatal NCT classes)and am feeling pretty isolated. Since my baby was born I've been a little daunted while trying to find NCT mums groups in London. I ring these very nice sounding women who all seem to pass me on to someone else -I'm certainly being paranoid but I wonder if I don't have the right post code for some groups! I'm a very gregarious person but at the moment feel like the girl in the playground with no friends! I also fear it's a little late now my baby's 3 months old & that I should have found a group earlier. I've been to a Laleche morning which was great but they only meet monthly and I'd really value weekly, local contacts. Should I persist with the NCT?
Thanks.

Vseager: yes keep going. Ring NCT UK office and ask for the name and number of the branch chair for your postcode. Then tell her of the problems you've been having and get her to send you details of local groups. Some branches really do struggle to find people to host coffee groups in London mostly because Londoners seem to move about a lot and also a lot go back to work so keeping up with the changing volunteers can be a task in itself. Start with the words I'm keen to get involved, she'll be pleased to help - and if she's not I want to know about it!!!

Unbiased..hmm. They aren't exactly pro-drugs are they?

Maya my constructive critiscism was about the FOCUS of NCT, ie. as many have said on this site, the NCT's magazines etc are heavily into breastfeeding counselling and the SAHM coffee mornings but have nothing to say about the pressures of working mums, or encouraging a more sociable environment for new members (hear, hear Sml). This site alone shows how many of us are finding it a disappointment. i know its up to us all to put something into it, but if the 'mission statement' is wrong to start with, we're onto a losing battle!
It was constructive, if you say nothingnothing will change will it?

Tigermoth, you asked if NCT ever asks someone to leave or change their approach. A change in approach may well be suggested - I gave a few examples in my post below. My experience is that NCT workers are very willing to listen to feedback and change their approach when supported to do so. I have known one person who was asked to resign as a breastfeeding counsellor. I think this is pretty rare throughout NCT - actually kicking someone out. All workers have a code of practice specific to their area of work, and all workers have to demonstrate on-going training (for bfcs it is two study days a year, regular meetings with other bfcs, and submission of a written case report or class session). If they do not do this (and we are flexible - if someone has been ill, or tied up with other committments, or has had a personal bad year, for example, we accept their explanation) without saying why, then we cannot re-register them, and they cannot practice in the name of NCT. Re-registration happens annually. A handful of bfcs cannot be re-registered for this reason, but more often they de-register themselves, recognising they cannot carry on because of their other committments, or maybe their lives have moved on, etc etc.

Lil, why should any organisation be 'pro'-drugs? How 'unbiased' is that? There is in development a Birth Policy which will make it clear that NCT classes are in the business of supporting informed decision-making, and that would include sharing information on drugs and their effects.

I am appalled at the idea that anyone would feel judged for their birth choices by an NCT teacher. I have known dozens of NCT teachers and sat in on tons of classes and I have never heard anything like that. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but I have never heard of it. I would even wonder if this was really and truly an NCT teacher who responded in this way. There are lots of birth teachers out there. That teacher will have a tutor and be subject to supervision, if she is part of NCT, and is answerable for her practice.

Tiktok, thanks for replying. You talk about NCT workers and the ways they are supported and can be de-registered. This seems very good as far as it goes.

But what about ordinary, run-of-the-mill NCT members? Many of the messages here have been critical of the general make-up of a local NCT group, rather than the workers themselves. I imagine it is near-impossible to call a member to task about their general attitude etc or to break up a strong clique. I suppose the answer you have to give to any outsider is to find a group more to their liking. However, as each local group is representing the NCT, you want groups to make a good impression to new members etc. After all it's new members who will keep the NCT going. So how do you deal with complaints not related to NCT workers and counsellors?

Tigermoth, I'll try to reply! No, I don't know of any member (as opposed to a worker) being kicked out for being cliquey! In fact, not all people who come to NCT events are NCT members...in some places, only a minority are actually paid up. NCT events are always open to non-members, and even people who host events are not necessarily members, just people dipping their toes in and maybe trying to help out.

At this grass roots level, social 'policing' is a bit difficult....but any actual group that was unwelcoming, and consistently that way, um, I just dunno....I hope the postnatal co-ordinator might be able to deal with it by perhaps supporting a new breakway group, but I am sure there will be occasional failures. Someone else might have direct experience of having to handle something like this.

It is a real shame if people get their ideas of NCT as a whole from one bad experience at someone's house, or one small group. When something has social support as part of its role, you are bound to get friendships forming, and they can appear exclusive to others...I've also had bad experiences myself. When we moved house, it took me a year to feel welcome at the schoolgates. People weren't especially hostile, they just made no effort to return my social overtures. I did all the running, and joined the PTFA, governors, helped in the classroom and so on, and the people who had ignored me before turned out ok. I think sometimes, people are not rude, just thoughtless.

Hi, I've just signed up to mumsnet so I hope you don't mind me joining in here.

NCT has been a lifeline to me. I have four children, with 21 yrs between oldest and youngest, and decided to join NCT when expecting No 4 because all my friends had grown up families. I also wanted to check out all the choices in childbirth, since my previous baby, 9 years before.

I attended NCT classes, which were far superior to any NHS classes I'd done and I had the birth I'd hoped for and, importantly for me, stayed in control. I was never made to feel that some choices were 'more valid' than others in the classes, with subjects like pain relief and Caesarian section covered fully and sympathetically.

I went along to Bumps & Babies from giving up work until we moved house when my baby was 9mths, and was always made to feel welcome. Indeed, some of the mums saw me as proof that it is possible to survive motherhood, witness my 21 yr old son, at university!!

We moved to another area and virtually the first phone call I made was to the local NCT. I was immediately plunged into a social whirl of Bumps & Babies, coffee mornings, evening talks, Easter Egg Hunts, Jumble Sales, you name it, I did it. I met lots of lovely people and never once felt excluded or that I was invading a clique. Possibly this is because my branch is small (between 25 and 40 members) and also because I live in an area with a very mobile population, so everyone is very friendly.

I've been so impressed by what NCT has given to me that I am now training as a Postnatal Leader and hope to give something back to an organisation that has provided me with knowledge and friendship. I just wish I'd joined when I had my first child!!

Vseager, whereabouts in London are you? If it is SE, I have just renewed my membership (after a long and disenchanted lapse regarding my local branch's support for mums working outside the home). I am hoping to set up a weekender group within my local branch for anyone who can't make weekday events easily. Only one snag - I received my national pack of info some weeks ago with an optimistic statement that the local branch would be in touch....

Marina, its possible your branch hasn't yet had notification of your joining them, if your application just missed the last local membership list sent out to them. Which branch have you joined?

Tigermoth,
If the NCT received a complaint about an individual or group of individuals then in addition to the branch committee there is also a regional team who would probably be called in to work with the branch/people concerned to work on ways to make the atmosphere/times/venues more welcoming. I have personally taken someone aside after a remark that was thoughtless but could have been perceived as judgmental. Most people don't think and are not intending to be unwelcoming, they've just forgotten what its like to be the newbie.

Chairmum, Lewisham and Greenwich. I look forward to receiving my latest issue of dear old "Broodsheet" soon...

Suew, you astound me. The other side of the planet and you know more about my local NCT branch than I do. I take my virtual hat off to you and thank you for the tip! Will investigate her website in due course. Can you do me another favour and tell me how you got an active link into your post?