Need help with 11 yo's non-existant social skills!

[lmctfrance]

Need help with 11 yo’s social skills!

Hello all, needing advice about developing my 11 yo’s very under-developed social skills.

For context, she is the youngest of 3, her older sisters are 20 + 21 respectively so much older. We’ve been living overseas, but in the Uk where my family lives, she has no cousins her age (all much older or younger) and none of my friends at home have kids her age. My husbands family lives in South America and we rarely see them.

She started nursery in France age 3, kids were always happy to see her and would run up to her. At age 4 I noticed when I took her to the park that she would start playing with kids but she would quickly storm off and sit on a bench if she lost/ the game changed/ she didn’t understand the game rules. Tried to work on it but to no avail. She complained about always being alone at nursery, the teacher confirmed it but didn’t know why.

Come 5 and Covid hits. For the whole of lockdown she had no interaction whatsoever with her peers as her sisters were already teens at that point. The whole rest of the year was a write-off as no playdates or birthday parties etc. Come Year 1 of elementary school (age 6), Covid was still going on and her class was being shut down every other week with too many cases, she didn’t seem to make any real friends that year.

Year 2 of elementary started off ok, she made a few friends, started some activities, invited over kids from time-to-time but by the end of the year was complaining about girls trying to « steal » her friends and leaving her out.

Year 3 (age 8 by now) she was put in a multi-age class, she made a group of friends but within a few months she said she fell out with the « leader » and was « fired » from the group. She said all the other groups were « full » and so spent the year sitting alone on a bench, her teacher confirmed it but didn’t have a reason why she was so isolated.

Year 4 she was in a class with different kids, she didn’t know any of them, made friends quickly but then same thing, after a few months she was « fired » from the group and spent the rest of the year on the bench, other groups said she wasn’t allowed to play with them. Spoke to the teacher multiple times who made a lot of effort to encourage new friendships but still she was always alone. We went to many extra-cirriculars etc. and although our daughter never complained of the kids being nasty, she just said no one wanted to be friends with her or really talk to her. No one even really said hello at drop-off etc.

She started seeing the school psychologist but she didn’t seem to do a lot, they did « art therapy » which ended up just being drawings of random things but didn’t really give any information as to why this was happening despite her being extraverted.

We decided to change school for Year 5 (age 10), it went great in the beginning, the first few months she was invited to birthdays, Hallowe’en parties, playdates and sleepovers…..then all of a sudden it just stopped towards January. She said the other girls would say they needed to talk in private then would leave her by herself. She would go up to other groups and they would say « sorry this group is private/it’s a private game ». Talked to the teacher and she was also baffled, said she was a very lovely girl who was kind, helpful and sociable with everyone.

The realization came when around about the same time, we went on a camping trip with her Scout group as adult volunteers.

One night we heard a lot of shouting coming from inside the girl’s tent. It was our daughter, screaming and hollering about the tent door being left open. She was berating them as though she was a strict headteacher and they were naughty school girls. We had very, very strong words with her and had a long chat about it. She is very allergic to wasp stings and been extremely stressed about any wasps getting in, we know she’d been anxious but we’d never seen it expressed in this way before. The group leader had to lead a discussion with everyone as they group wasn’t capable of doing anything together anymore. The other kids basically complained that our daughter was always bossing them about, telling them how to do things, telling them off for doing things « wrong ». She recognized she had been doing these things and apologized but said she didn’t know how to stop.

We called a private psychologist when we got back who had a session with her and told us that 1) she had a very strong value system (e.g. hates hypocrisy and hypocrites, so can’t stand anyone who talks about someone behind their back and then calls them their best friend) and 2) is extremely
anxious and feels the need to control especially other kid’s behaviors, but trusts adults and older children hence why we had never seen this behavior.

We worked on it a lot with the psychologist and at home. Suddenly things got better at school and there were no longer « private » chats and games. She moved into high school in September and found many new friends and has had party invitations etc.

However, I still feel like after spending soooooo many years sitting alone on a bench at school and being left out of playdates and parties, her social skills are really lagging behind all her peers. I feel like being part of a group is something she should have learnt at age 5/6.

She was invited to a birthday with her Scout group today, the same group she was shouting at on the camping trip in May, the whole group was invited. We talked to her beforehand as it was at an arcade so lots of opportunity for her to tell people how to do things. We were happy to see that she did not boss anyone around at all, didn’t tell anyone how to do things.

But she just doesn’t know at all how to participate in a group……at all. She’ll go up to a few girls who are deep in conversation and say random things like « my head hurts » « I ate way too much » « I just saw a car with a donut sticker on it ». Of course the others all ignore her and carry on with their conversation. We then went to a Japanese restaurant and she said to everyone « I have no idea how to use chopsticks ». When they ignored her, she kept on repeating it over and over again, until I had to tell her to stop from the other table. Then she started saying that she had loads of mosquito bites and wouldn’t stop talking about them and bringing them up again later when no one was listening. Later, something on her plate was hard to cut and so she was exclaiming really loudly « OH MY GOD THIS IS SO HARD TO CUT!!! OH MY GOD ITS SO HARD! AHHHHHHHHHH HELP! HELP! I CAN’T CUT THIS!!!! » She was also talking really loudly and getting really close into people’s personal space, would put her arm around people who clearly didn’t want to be touched, get right into their faces, would bend down to talk to girls shorter than her and would literally be right in front of their faces…..I could see the others were visibly very annoyed and exasperated by it.

We’ve had her assessed for ASD, ADHD etc. by two specialists but they all said everything was fine. Her teachers say does not display any behaviors of those things in class. She isn’t like this one-on-one, or if she is in a group with her best friend (means she has one « ally » in the group).

So my question is, how on earth do we get her to practice social skills in a group setting?! Because even if I keep getting her to go to group activities etc., after a while she puts them off and they just all start ignoring her and she ends up alone. We’re worried that this could happen to her new friends at school if this is left unchecked.

We’ve tried talking to her about it gently but I don’t want to destroy her self-confidence, and sometimes there are so many problems I don’t want to make a huge list of things she did « wrong » and end up creating social anxiety. It’s almost like a sort of panic when she realizes other peoples attention is not on her and she has to do something to get it back. Even if she sees two people walking side by side, she’ll try and push them aside to get in the middle of them. She’ll even grab people psychically and turn them around if they turn their backs on her while she’s telling them something! At home I wouldn’t say she has too much or too little attention….she doesn’t attention-seek at home.

Anyway, any help or success stories please!!

Has she had an autism assessment?

That is in the original post. No autism (although I think it could be worth revisiting).

I agree. I would try to schedule an ASD assessment with a practitioner that specialises in female autism.

Wow, there is quite alot to figure out. We have had some of these issues with our son and it did get better. We worked very hard on how a conversation works and how must listen. One thing we have found helped is activities with only 1 or 2 others that is quite structured, like bowling, cinema. He did not have to figure out the social ques just follow the "rules'. Most of his problems came about because he was nervous and on high alert so just very very conscious and anxious. Good luck, she will find her group, it just takes time and support.

How often does she see other family members chatting to their friends? Like you or her sisters?

Have you tried explaining that people who are good at talking to other people have a to work at it and that conversation is like a game where the aim is to find out something interesting about the other person and to ask them interesting questions in order to do that.

I got really crap at talking to people over lock down but I have tried really hard and can feel myself getting better. Learning cool stuff about other people is really interesting.

OP said she has.

However presumably that is in France? The attitude towards ASD in France is a good 20/30 years out of date depending on which professional you see, so it's not that unlikely that a girl would be missed if they are looking for more stereotypical "boy" traits.

I have heard really good things about the American Girl series of books about friendships, both for girls on the ASD spectrum and girls who aren't but who struggle with learning the "norms" of social rules.

For her age you could look at Friends: Making them and Keeping Them, or A Smart Girl's Guide To Knowing What To Say.

The chopsticks comment deserved some exchange and they just ignored her. It's a perfectly normal thing to say in that setting.
Rather than telling her to stop you could have acknowledged it so she knows she was heard.

I would also suggest another asd assessment though. My ds is the same he will not move on until you repeat the thing he says so he is clear you have heard and understood. If you say "oh yes?" he will just keep saying the same thing again until you say his sentence verbatim.

Yes the assessments were done in France, one of them by someone who was relatively young and had been trained in the States with recent criteria.

We often have people over at the house so she sees us interacting with people all the time. We go on holiday with friends etc. When she's talking with me and her sisters she is very natural, conversations are interesting and not one-sided.

She might just be one of those people who isn’t very at ease in a crowd. Does she do things with just one or two friends ever? All the things you’ve mentioned have been in big groups.

One thing I have done with my family member who’s autistic is try doing what they do (this is after explaining why not to do X or what would be better to do and that hasn’t worked). So for example if he likes to go up way too close to people, I’d (with secret prior agreement) go up way too close to people and get his attention so he could see it. That often seemed to help for some reason, like he could laugh at me and see with his own eyes that that’s not what people usually do.

Worth saying it’s also just a really tough age and most kids don’t have good social skills at that age. The same behaviour in a few years might have people replying and making conversation back to her.

I meant to add - hats off to you for noticing and acknowledging your daughter’s negative behaviour. It can’t be easy to realise that her isolation is in good part down to how she’s acting ❤️

Speaking of acting does she do anything like drama club? Can be good for practising turn taking etc.

To be diagnosed as autistic you have to meet the threshold in four different areas, so if she has social/communication difficulties but no issues in the other areas then she won’t get that diagnosis.

But her social behaviour does sound very like the behaviour of my autistic child. I would try looking for resources for teaching autistic children social skills - even if she’s not autistic she will benefit from these.

So for example you could look at these sites:

https://www.autismspeaks.org/social-skills-and-autism

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/family-life-and-relationships/making-friends/parents-and-carers

https://juniorlearning.co.uk/products/jl413-6-social-skills-games?variant=29419672993907&country=GB&currency=GBP&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&srsltid=AfmBOooynqn1cXNScKUXqSym7nfGDKmRQgm_EjOYAAJOSWR668LMPNGv-a8

https://www.kcs.co.uk/6-social-skills-board-games?srsltid=AfmBOoojwnOi5fhGnSaAuCkkQ2za33kRKhyXjj7w4XRjZUziH74SfIxWjnQ

So she will probably have masked with the adults, and they won't have picked up on the social issues with peers. It sounds like she struggles with how to initiate conversations and join in, and can't read social cues very well. I'm autistic and found groups of girls terrifying and baffling my entire life. But I'm not extroverted, so wouldn't have tried the strategies your DD is using.

Some of the issues may also be anxiety related, as she possibly is fearing being left out, and the behaviour is driven by the need to at least be noticed and not ignored. Maybe she needs some ways to connect that don't involve talking about herself - asking questions or remarking on what her friends are doing, for example. I still use "scripts" in unstructured social situations to help me remember how to interact now!

Also, with the lockdowns and being at home just with parents, some kids seem to have just got used to the idea that others have to listen and engage with whatever they say, because generally, of course, parents do engage with their kids, even if what they're saying is boring/inane, or they are actually interrupting and being rude and under normal circumstances we might have not put up with it. We were probably guilty of overindulging our autistic DCs' love of info dumping, and it was hard for them both going back to school and out into the wild with peers again. They'd had so much of our attention, pretty much whenever they wanted it, especially while DH was furloughed. DS2, who is AuDHD, found the requirement for turn taking with friends and in school particularly hard, as he'd not had to practice those impulse control muscles for a while.

I should also add that when she's acting this way I don't recognise her at all. It's almost like she's been replaced by someone else!

Her psychologist who she's been seeing for a while said she saw no traits of ASD or ADHD, that she is extremely good at imagining how other people feel, has a lot of empathy for others etc. If you ask her how to behave in a group or in conversation, she'll reel off a load of things that are very accurate, but then in practice she doesn't follow through.

I don't have any advice but i just wanted to say that you sound like a brilliant mum

Thank you JG24 :)

They're are some good social skills groups around me. Might be worth a google
They can be quite basic but probably not a bad idea to start at beginning again!

It does sound like she may be autistic. Girls can present very differently, and underlying anxiety, being socially-driven and a need to control situations being very common. Does she have siblings? Girls can appear “less autistic” at home with you as they feel safe and the anxiety is lower, and especially if she’s an only child with all the attention. Autistic girls can have empathy and excellent imaginations etc. How is her emotional regulation?
I have (undiagnosed) likely autistic 4 yr old girl and although much younger I can see similarities, and she seems completely “normal” when engaged in adult conversation with safe adults eg parents. She does have sensory noise sensitivity as well though- does she have no sensory issues? I’d def be exploring another autism assessment, or at least strategies to help as helpful posters have sent links to above. I’ve heard girls with autism can become friends with similarly neurodiverse peers so I just really hope she finds her tribe as such soon, must be heartbreaking for you and her, best of luck to you both and sorry I have no better advice!

We called a private psychologist when we got back who had a session with her and told us that 1) she had a very strong value system (e.g. hates hypocrisy and hypocrites, so can’t stand anyone who talks about someone behind their back and then calls them their best friend) and 2) is extremely
anxious and feels the need to control especially other kid’s behaviors, but trusts adults and older children hence why we had never seen this behavior.

I think keep working on these things, with a therapist if necessary. Perhaps her odd conversational behaviour in groups is due to anxiety, she gets kind of manic and can't just relax and relate naturally like she does at home, or with her best friend. I'd work hard with her on skills to manage anxiety, like deep breathing, mediation, CBT-type analysis of any anxious thoughts.

Her psychologist who she's been seeing for a while said she saw no traits of ASD or ADHD, that she is extremely good at imagining how other people feel, has a lot of empathy for others etc

The psychologist is going off a very outdated view of autism, and clearly does not know about the differences in female presentation.

Your DD may not be diagnosably autistic, but the assertion that autism = no empathy is out of date and wrong.

Sounds very similar to one of my autistic children. I would also question why a psychologist is saying having empathy would indicate someone isn't autistic. Lots of autistic people have vast empathy, although it might be shown differently.

I would suggest that not everyone can cope in larger groups, so maybe she would be better off starting to try and develop single friendships.

It’s a myth that autistic people don’t show empathy or don’t understand how other people are thinking. Especially in girls autistic people may be highly attuned to other people’s thoughts.

But - again - she won’t get that diagnosis if she’s only having social/communication issues as that is only one part of the diagnostic criteria.

You can still use resources aimed mostly at autistic kids to help her.

Were you in the assessment or had you given a full history? My DD answered ehat she thought was the right answer to a lot of the questions in the initial assessment but with a bit of gentle probing from me more information came out and then it became apparent that she was giving the answer she thought they wanted to hear and not giving information on the things which had been bothering her, like smells and loud noises.

If it was just the Practitioner and DD and no full history was taken i would pretty much ignore the previous assessments.

Also agree that the American Girl books on friendship are good too. I bought a few for my DD who is diagnosed as AuDHD.

Sounds like my eldest who is autistic. Could you look at getting an assessment in the uk?

I was surprised to hear ASD has been ruled out.

Reading about her randoms comments and inability to allow others to dictate how they do their own things is exactly like my autistic ds.

he’s also great with adults or a small group and has a great sense of humour (very dry!) but it just doesn’t translate in big social situations.

It might also be worth speaking to Caudwell Children although I think they only assess for ASD and not ADHD.