4 year old sleep

[matresense]

My son has never been the best sleeper and I imagine that the start of reception is responsible for being less settled, but he wakes up between 2-4am every night and takes an hour to settle. I am wondering whether he is going to bed too early - he goes down around 7 and I have to wake him at 6.30 at the moment.

how much sleep do your 4 yo children get?

My ds was like that. Turned out he had sleep apnea. It stopped within a week of having adenoids and tonsils removed.

Is he warm enough and is he eating enough in the day? There is a good guide here in feeding 4 year olds

@BunnyRuddingtonthis is a constant struggle. My son had a milk allergy as a child and used to refuse to feed when uncomfortable, and will do the same if he feels uncomfortable emotionally or if he isn’t sure about a food or what he fancies. He is what you’d call a “happy starver” because he really does have an iron will and absolutely would not be motivated by “he’ll eat when he is hungry” type behaviour. I only feed him whole milk as a drink for extra calories, add olive oil and Parmesan to pasta, butter toast very liberally and our family eating is quite skewed towards things he will eat a lot of (luckily he is a good eater, so meat and potatoes, curry and pasta dishes are all good).

Breakfast is a real struggle, as he can be a bit unhungry and demand resistant. I am assured he eats well at school (and did at pre school) - lunch and snacks morning and afternoon and I really do my best.

This morning, he had toast and butter (one slice, crusts off), a cup of whole milk, a slice of melon and a handful of walnuts. He will bury a pain au chocolat, but it has to be Gail’s, which could get extremely expensive so I do it once a week before school.

Evenings, he will eat a big meal, but sometimes i think he probably doesn’t fill up quite enough. Maybe I’ll try a banana whilst we do stories, as that worked for a while. Last night, he had one chicken drumstick, one and a half sausages, two little Yorkshire puddings, broccoli and carrots, half a jacket potato with butter. Plus a glass of milk and a homemade chocolate cookie whilst we did his reading. I gave him some nuts, an apple, and two chocolate rice cakes after school. I thought this seemed quite good, but I’ll have a look at your document and see what I think in terms of the comparison.

For anyone who is about to criticise me on sugar or amount of chocolate, please don’t do this. I lived a large part of my life when he was a toddler using “gateway” foods to try to make him comfortable before introducing things to try and his diet is, I think, pretty good for a child who will refuse to eat. He is very active (and always has been and is a normal height, having dropped centiles as a baby, although he is quite slight compared to his peers). I imagine that someone will say to be he is likely neurodivergent, which I am very aware of! But I don’t know if his needs are severe enough to pursue a diagnosis just yet.

@Mrsoftandhisstrangeworldthank you! Something I hadn’t thought of and will keep in mind

I have a bad sleeper who is 5. When he was 4 he was going to sleep at about 9.15/9.30, up at 7 (but up multiple times in the night too).

Around the time he turned 5, he suddenly improved and sleeps through quite often now, however he now goes to sleep at about 10pm, sometimes later but always before 11.

I appreciate he's low sleep needs compared with other kids but there is definitely something in a later bedtime for some children.

Hi op sounds like hes definitely eating enough!
Does he wake to go to the toilet at that time?

And @BunnyRuddingtonwarmth also a struggle. He will kick covers off if warm, but then the temperature will drop and he will be cold - I do try to tuck him in before bed a couple of times, but I obviously don’t know quite what happens after that. He is also hard to settle with cosleeping because of the warmth issue - I’ll try to cuddle him to warm him up, but if the temperature is even slightly too warm as a result of being close to me, he will kick the covers off and fidget. Last winter we used an electric blanket, so maybe I need to try that at a very low level when he is fast asleep before I go to bed maybe. And warmer pyjamas.

@Doyouknowdanieltigeryes, he often does go to the toilet. So I guess it is that maybe, even though he can sleep through without going 🤷‍♀️.

@Cakeandslippersmaybe that’s it. I’ll see if I can make the evenings a bit longer in a calm way. It’s a tricky one, as sometimes he seems a bit ragged by 6 and he falls asleep very easily. But maybe if we try a later cycle, which might allow him more toilet time, and he sleeps through happily, he will be less ragged in the evenings too.

My daughter was an excellent sleeper right until she started school. Four days in, she started waking every hour saying she needed the loo. On reflection I think it was separation anxiety. The only way she got a good night was going to bed really early (some nights 5!) she would then sleep 12 hours. I think school exhausted her. Teacher helped by putting a marble in the jar every time she had a good nights sleep. It went on for six months!

If he is a little cool and he kicks tge covers off, one thing I did with our DD was to put an extra layer on her and a fleece blanket between the sheet and the mattress for that extra bit of warmth.

And absolutely no criticism from me on sugar. I have one on ARFiD. Is this something that you’ve considered?

DD goes to bed at 7, wakes between 6 and 6.30. Although she’s been with our childminder four days a week 9-5 (three days until last September when we upped it to make the transition to five day in reception easier) she’s so tired from school that’s she grouchy as anything by 7pm!

@BunnyRuddingtonthank you, that’s a nice tip. I’ll try that one.

Yes, I considered ARFiD via late night mumsnet threads when my son was little, but I didn’t push for diagnosis as I could see that we were still expanding his repertoire, little by little and we’ve been lucky enough not to plateau as yet, even though he is still wary of new foods and struggles in unfamiliar settings sometimes. I think that my son’s diet is now good enough for him to not be considered a problem eater - I know quite a few children who are far fussier than my son - so I don’t know whether I would be taken seriously, but for a while he was definitely heading into that direction. I was never sure whether it was the muscle memory of having had severe reflux and tummy pain from his allergy that caused him fear and anxiety, or something else (he is quite demand avoidant and anxiety tends to manifest as defiance more generally). It has lessened considerably, so I can only think of one time in the last 12 months where I have been somewhere that he really wouldn’t eat any of what was on offer. I really feel for you and am sending you much solidarity - I found that watching my child restrict was viscerally painful, even though I tried not to show it.

My ds started reception this year, hes had a night terror every single night since starting! Hes been prone to them for a couple of years now, but had a good stretch of not having any till the day he started school. But my God have they come.back with a vengeance. Im hoping they tail off soon, and i think school has just overstimulated him of a day.

Maybe transition to school is your ds sleep problem and it will regulate eventually. Xxx

He had CMPA as a baby and you get him drinking cups of whole milk? I would question whether he ever outgrew it. Perhaps trial 4 weeks of no dairy and see if sleep improves.

I woukd second this. I have CMPA and “outgrew” it but never really had. Once I went back to being DF I felt 1000 times better and realised a lot of tge things tgat had been wrong with me were simply non-Ige CMPA.

@BunnyRuddingtoninteresting. He didn’t reach his height potential line when he was DF and didn’t look quite right, tbh. He now looks healthy. Vegan children tend not to grow as tall - it’s totally possible to have a healthy diet, but it is hard to make it work with a child.

i put him to bed at 7.30 last night and he slept through. Which was great.

less great was that he did something quite disruptive in class and I got an email from the teacher.

so I guess it’s probably also the return to school.

thanks for those who have tried to help and reassure

I totally understand. Would he be vegan though if you cut out the dairy?

Could you at least cut it back for a bit and offer a calcium and vitamin D supplement as well?

@BunnyRuddington@Mrsoftandhisstrangeworld

i’d be open to DF btw, now that it is more possible to sneak vitamins into juice or give him chewy vitamins etc. But it was very difficult when he was younger to give him sufficient vitamins. I’ve only ever followed advice from medical professionals on the milk ladder etc. Lovely as it is to be heckled about being irresponsible for feeding my child dairy, on medical advice, I won’t be taking him off dairy without expert advice on that being absolutely necessary.

@BunnyRuddingtoni could try. To be be honest, he only outgrew the dairy at 18 months when he ate meat and fish and chicken very well. And he still didn’t reach his height. A lot of substitutes are UPF crap, so I’d only do it on very expert advice.

But I could get some vitamins and cut down on the whole milk drinks

But you're feeding him upf crap anyway, the pain au Chocolats etc. I'm not criticising that, but I am your logic. You can get oat milk that is not processed but it isn't fortified so you have to supplement with a upf supplement anyway. Why not trial it for a month and see. No healthcare expert will be able to diagnose or advise beyond a trial exclusion.

A pain au chocolat from a Gail’s once a week is not UPF crap. Way to mum shame me!

Almost all dairy substitutes contain rubbish and lots of studies have shown that they are not nutritionally complete substitutes even when they are not (oat milk contains no protein etc etc) - making him dairy free would mean exposing him to some utter rubbish via school meals and substitutes that I don’t get to choose. Believe me, I spent a year post weaning trying to find good substitutes and most of them are rubbish or not nutritionally close to what they are replicating. Are you medically qualified?

And nor is the odd Kallo chocolate rice cake. Or a homemade chocolate chip biscuit. Feeding your child dairy substitutes day in day out is not comparable.