7 year old is controlling and rage-filled

[JunglistRaver]

Hi,

I'm at the end of my tether with my 7 year old DD and desperate for advice, please.

She flies off the handle into a terrible rage over the most trivial issue. It normally relates to control...she feels she HAS to be in control. It's like she has never grown out of the "but I wanted a blue cup, not a red cup/I want to do it myself" toddler tantrum phase?
She is violent, aggressive, yells and screams and says dreadful things. She destroys things in the house. She is constantly yelling at me to shutup and shoving me out of her bedroom - kicking me or pushing me. (We are not physical with her).

This morning, we didn't go the way to school that she wanted so she shoved me into the road twice, and tried to run away.

Eg I open her curtains, she closes them. I turn a light on when she wanted to do it: she will turn in off again to turn it on herself.

She is good as gold at school, she is a bright girl. I have raised the difficult behaviour at home with a teacher once and they were gobsmacked. She seems to have friends and enjoys school and the 2 hobbies she does after school.

I do try and built choice into her day, I try to give her autonomy but the challenges generally relate to getting ready for school. And if we only have 10 minutes til we leave and teeth aren't brushed etc etc then of course, I have to tell her.

I think part of it is separation anxiety? But I am failing. Some mornings I dread going into her bedroom. I am on eggshells all the time. I wake up in a good mood and BAM, I am getting yelled at or told to go away because I have done something benign like pick something up from the floor.

I've tried:

• Jollying along, turning it into a laugh (often works but I feel so fake and it is a massive effort to do it)
• Reward chart. Doesn't work. She wants to be the one to control it. Will remove stars, want to do her own stickers, etc, she takes it over and it defeats the point and becomes frustrating.
• Punishments. I try not to do this in the heat of the moment but sometimes the threat of screen ban/not going somewhere might work. But frankly she would have nothing left and we'd go nowhere with the way she is some days. If we confiscate something from her, she has now started doing this to us.
• Gentle...I try to be a bit more "gentle parenting" sometimes. Offer her a hug, say you are angry, etc, but she tends to lash out. I think she prefers to be left alone and it helps not to blow it up tbh. I don't like feeling like she is "getting away" with the way she treats us too?
• Good inside Dr Becky. It just doesn't feel "me". I couldn't move her somewhere safe in a tantrum, she would injure me.
• Threatened to phone teacher etc. Just winds her up.
• Anger techniques. I have tried to teach her deep breathing, count to 10, we wrote our own little booklets. I say I get angry too. But she just loses her head - frequently - straight to 10.

It makes my parenting very inconsistent because I am trying all these different approaches and I am just so god damn worn down. She's been like this since she started nursery around 6 years ago. Her temper does not seem to improve.

Of course she is not like this all the time; sometimes we can go a few weeks of excellent behaviour. Then sometimes it's every day, multiple times a day, losing her shit. I do love her very much, we spend a lot of time together and we are very close, but, combined with other things I have got going on, are pushing me over the brink. I blame myself and just do not know what to do.

HELP
PLEASE

Definitely. She needs you to co-regulate with her she is not able to do it yet. You being calm and regulated is essential and can change the whole dynamic. Be sympathetic, understanding, curious (tho you may not feel it!!)

PS I'm sorry you're going through such a significantly rough time yourself and I hope you have plenty of support.

The Explosive child author also has a website with videos about the techniques
https://livesinthebalance.org/parents-and-families-tour/

Huge solidarity hugs/☕/🍷, OP. I had one of these. He’s now 9 and has been diagnosed with ASD and DCD, question mark for ADHD as well. Our issues also started around 18 months, really ramping up around 4.5.

School were useless, partly because of Covid, partly because he was an angel there so it had to be behavioural. They actively discouraged me from seeking assessment when he was at his worst at home. He was also ten times worse with me than with DH - I’m his safe person and now I understand more, I’d say I’m the one person he never feels the need to mask with.

What I would say is that things did calm a little from around age 7, and age 9 he is generally calmer. This may be because of the diagnosis and knowing we know a fair amount of his behaviour is not intentionally “naughty” - we’ve had lots of open conversations about what he finds difficult and what we could try, which would have been impossible 2-3 years ago.

I’m not surprised you’ve tried lots of things, you will have done because none of them worked, right? I could have written much of your OP myself, especially the bit around reward charts. And socks!

I did spend a lot of time wording things quite carefully to try to dial down the demands at home. I think this may have helped but there is also a balance to be found between balancing the needs of the child and the needs of others in the family, especially any siblings.

I would do whatever you can to put your own oxygen mask on first, I also felt my cup was very empty at times and I manage things better when I have a bit more in the tank. The assessment process actually helped in some ways - we went private and I felt listened to for the first time.

@JunglistRaver sending hugs and support. Echoing others that this looks like ASD (possibly pda). I have one diagnosed ASD pda-er one just ASD and both with ADHD. They are so so different so don’t let the difference between DD and her half sister confuse you.

The explosive child book is good but before that please read “when the naughty step makes things worse” by Dr Naomi Fisher. It will save your sanity. If I could all the advice I would give is everything in that book so please read that.

listen there is hope through a co regulation, low demand, collaborative approach. My 6 yr old PDA-er said to
me yesterday when we didn’t have time for two TV choices before school for her and her sister “I know mummy - I’ll have my choice after school”. My life is still a fucking nightmare a lot of the time, don’t get me wrong, but it has got better!!

Another one who also thinks that the differences between your DD and her DSis are a bit of a red herring. Our DD and her DN have very similar diagnoses but couldn't be more different as people. Like you say, chalk and cheese.

I just wanted to say another thank you for the thoughtful responses. I've spent the last few days absorbing them. I've spoken with school (no next steps, as yet). I downloaded the Naomi Fisher book "When The Naughty Step doesn't work" and certainly some of that is ringing very true. Waiting for Explosive Child to be delivered. I've started a behaviour diary of what's going on.

We had a pleasant morning today til leaving for school. (Though, I notice how much on eggshells I am doing going into her room, making her breakfast, lunchbox, hair etc).

We were leaving the house and she drew something in the condensation on the door. I (automatically) rubbed it off (because I'm so behind on cleaning). My bad.
She lost it and yelled for 15 minutes. Today I just sat and let her vent it all out. I was just too numb to do anything else. I figured, well, if she is late for school (which she was), then so be it. The number of school mornings I have spent cheerfully jollying, begging, coaxing, pleading, bribing, yelling. Nothing changes.

I started crying when we were finally walking to school. She was very upset and felt guilty. I just explained I didn't mean to upset you, you didn't mean to upset me. How could we handle it better etc.

This can be a typical interaction.
However, she can go days - even weeks - where she is pretty "good". (Though, I'm now asking, is this because I'm just pandering and letting a lot go?)

I have to admit, what you are all saying and reading the book is scaring me. I feel I am poorly equipped to parent in the way that she needs me to...I don't even know what THAT is? Also am trying to make some life changes anyway because of my childhood and PTSD. This just feels like another huge area of my world that I need to significantly overhaul and I just feel colossally overwhelmed.

(Though, I'm now asking, is this because I'm just pandering and letting a lot go?)

"Letting a lot go" is not "pandering". Ross Greene has an idea of "baskets". You can't deal with everything at once and what you call "letting go" is what he calls "basket C" .

There are things you are going to assert even if leads to a meltdown. This is basket A, essential and safety critical, I will grab you out of the traffic or stop you hurting another child even if you throw the mother of all tantrums. Then there are things you can discuss and problem-solve together and negotiate over (Basket B, where learning takes place) And then there's Basket C where everything else goes. Things that you know are triggers to avoid (until you can apply problem solving); things that aren't worth fighting over; things that you might sometimes negotiate but you can see your DC is not in a fit state right now. Even some things that you would like to react to because they're not good behaviour but you know it wont help. You let those things go.

Your control as a parent comes from you making realistic decisions about what belongs in which basket.

To be honest I started off with nearly everything in Basket C And it worked because DC calmed down and felt less stressed and less reactive and then DC was more ready to learn to negotiate and problem solve.

So, with luck you'll find the Ross Greene book helpful!

She lost it and yelled for 15 minutes. Today I just sat and let her vent it all out. I was just too numb to do anything else. I figured, well, if she is late for school (which she was), then so be it.

Sounds as if waiting for her to calm down worked well. Being late for school is not the end of the world, for people who like consequences it could even be a "natural consequence". I had days when I just thought "too bad, we are going to be late because I just need to wait for DC to calm down".

btw are you getting any support for your own issues? Parenting can be a trigger for own past and then we get into a downward cycle with the kids.

Thanks @AmaryllisNightAndDay .
I think I need to learn how to put a lot more into Basket C.
Leaving her to calm down certainly seem the best way; and I'm a fan of natural consequences too.

I'm having group therapy which is useful, thanks. I'm very cognisant that I don't want her to have the sort of rigid upbringing I had; and faux polite relationship that I now have with my family. I'm trying to break the mould, rather than resort to the authoritarian way I was raised. So it all sort of feeds off each other sometimes doesn't it.

Hi op, sounds like you coped really well in the moment this morning. Your DD was completely unregulated so needed to vent. When my kids get like this (if I can) I meet it with kindness and calmness but few words “it will be ok” / “I’m here” etc

i say “if I can” because having a child like this is incredibly hard and sometimes we are at the end of our tether and sometimes I shout and I cry. You’re not alone and it’s ok that you cried and showed your emotion. It is absolutely fine and ok that you were late for school. You prioritised emotional well being and your relationship with your daughter. The days I forget to do this and worry about being late to school - that’s when it goes wrong.

i know you feel overwhelmed- it is overwhelming. A lot of us on this thread are on a parenting journey and are all learning. We get it wrong sometimes and sometimes we get it right. All you can do is learn little by little and take it day by day.

i would really listen to the Naomi fisher book first and then read the explosive child. I say this as her Fisher book is a more general look at parenting children whereas the Ross Greene book is more specific about problem solving. The books go together well - Fisher references Greene in her book.

You sound like your nervous system is on high alert which is not surprising given what you’ve said so please if you can lower your demands and expectations on yourself (and DD) when you need to eg - it is ok to have chips for dinner several nights in a row, it’s ok to eat in front of the TV, it’s ok to watch a lot of TV, it’s ok to have pyjama days, it’s ok to stay in all day sometimes etc etc We mainly all eat together at the table but sometimes that is too much and we have pizza in front of the TV - it hasn’t created a rod for my back or had any bad consequences. So be kind to yourself. It will get easier.

• Good inside Dr Becky. It just doesn't feel "me". I couldn't move her somewhere safe in a tantrum, she would injure me.

I don't remember having to move her (may be when she was younger and smaller) - just 'contain' somehow, if possible. Stay close and reassure you're not overwhelmed or scared by her feelings/ behaviour.

I came to recommend Dr Becky and specifically her DFK programme. Her book is on audible (you might be eligible for a free credit if you haven't used it for a while).

My dc sounds a lot like yours and it really helped us.
The explosive child was also helpful.
Good luck, OP.

Not RTFT, however, I have been experiencing something similar with DD (10) for the past few years. It honestly felt that I was held hostage in an abusive relationship. ASD was suggested by clinical psychologist 3 years ago (various other traits going on also), however, she copes so well in school that when referred, she didn't make it past triage, CAMHS wouldn't help as not suicidal and exhausted everywhere else so I've been on my own with it.
I've read everything I could on ASD and found pathological demand avoidance a good fit. Like you I was so inconsistent with my parenting strategies, I just couldn't work out what was best. I knew she wouldn't get a diagnosis of ASD and nobody else saw the signs, very much explosive at home so masking elsewhere. I also knew there was separation anxiety and general anxiety in the mix so I felt like I couldn't trust my judgement, if I parented her as if she had ASD with a demand avoidant profile (as was my instinct), would I be setting her up to fail?
Basically, it got to crisis point and I decided to stick with my instincts, removed demands, gave her help with the things that caused her most anxiety, I now hold her hand until she sleeps, yes it's a step backwards, but she's no longer having hours of panic attacks prior to bedtime, she no longer sleeps at her dad's or anywhere else. Lots of exercise to tire her, making everything into a game. She was physically unable to get her uniform on in the morning, if it takes some music on and a silly dance from me to make that happen, it's a win. We did a lot of "how long do you think it will take me to do....." that helped as it became a game rather than a demand. When she wanted to play on her tablet for example, I would ask how long would you like and set the timer accordingly. Changing the way I asked her to do things, if I wanted her to sit down to put her socks on I would pat the bed rather than asking her. I adopted loads of PDA strategies and things are so much better, I can breathe again. I really worked on building up her self confidence and she is so much stronger
I actually don't think she does have PDA as she has come such a long way in 6 months, but she was burnt out by anxiety and these changes allowed her to recover, the transformation is incredible. Yes, she needs extra from me, I've come to accept that and that's ok. I can slowly build on her independence now she is in a better place.

Good luck OP, I hope you find some strategies that help.

The pushing you in the road crosses a line. That is bloody dangerous and I would wallop her backside then and there not offer her a sodding hug. But then this situation would never have materialised if she hadn't gotten away with it the first time she hit you.

It would just be a total crackdown for me. Ton of bricks. No screens, no devices. Go to your room, think about your behaviour and stay there until you can speak to me civilly. Proper shock value. I hardly ever yell so when I do you can hear a pin drop.

My kids want something, feel free to try and persuade me, I'll hear them out and if they've got a good argument, I'll change my decision. But they don't swear and shout and certainly don't get physically aggressive.

You hit me, shove me, you get a smacked backside. Because she has to learn that she can't be violent and expect no retaliation. Better she gets the short sharp shock of a smack from a parent at 7 than carry on until she gets stabbed at 13 because she started on the wrong person.

No hugs. No wishy washy 'you're very angry' gentle parenting shit. She is 7 years old and already out of control, do you want to deal with this when she is 16? She needs some boundaries and discipline or she's going to end up a spoilt little thug.

And don't excuse her behaviour! 'You didn't mean to upset me and I didn't mean to upset you' Yes she bloody did. You don't scream at someone unless you want to upset them.

She felt guilty and upset because she was seeing the effect of her behaviour. This should have been a teachable moment! Your aggression is upsetting and made mummy cry. Instead you excused it! What has that taught her? It's OK because she didn't mean it.

How wonderful, well done for not giving up.
Your approach would probably help most children too!

See, this is what stopped me from trusting my instincts to change my parenting style, my family would state my DD needed firm discipline, make her scared of you was one of the lines that was trotted out on the regular.
Thing is that level of discipline never worked, just made her more reactionary and more anxious, I think she lost a bit of trust in me TBH. You can't fight fire with fire when you are dealing with an anxious child, it just makes things worse.
Understanding the root cause of the behaviour is where you need to come from, it doesn't mean no consequences at all, but for behaviour borne out of anxiety, consequences are rarely justified or helpful.

Suffice it to say I don't agree with Balloonhearts AT ALL.

Tbh I think you have a child who is picking up on your PSTD and is acutely aware that you are suffering and children simply cannot bear their primary carers to be in pain. It's not meanness it's agonising for HER because she is so sensitive to you. Children can be super sensitive and feel responsible for far too much. Anxiety can follow that alone. I know I picked up on my mother's vulnerability in some areas and it made me very anxious and protective of her and yes, that was a kind of separation anxiety.

But that doesn't mean you have to be strong or pretend there is nothing wrong - more thant you can show her that you won't let her down and will always be on her side,which I think you do do. It is a way of reparenting yourself to think about love being unconditional. The behaving well most of the time is a good sign, not that she is manipulative.

Closeness is always good. I used to lie in bed and tell my daughter long stories made up sagas a bit like the Faraway Tree.

She has turned out very well, 22 now. Still moments of fragility occasional outbursts but no mental health issues or anxiety; I would say she is a strong resilient and creative,sociable soul despite the eggshells at 7 years. No diagnosed ASD but I do sometimes wonder about AdHd.

You are doing brilliantly. My top tip is a hot chocolate or real sugar ribena the minute she wakes. Lots of hugs, but be incredibly respectful of personal space at the same time,even touching dds arm to make her put her coat on could cause a tantrum...I just think she was super sensitive and I had to learn to respect that.
But you can't see her as a person to fear. She is after all a small child. Even if old feelings of being a un supported child flood back in you, she is not the "adult" mistreating you,even if it feels like it.

Dd also had sensory issues I now associate with possibly undiagnosed ADHD. She really found meal times very stressful so like another poster I had to lower demands. Often she would eat in a quiet room away from her two brothers once I worked out she simply has no appetite once the cortisol response kicked in. But before that we had a lot of scenes to do with food.
No issues at all with food past 8 years old eats wide range good cook etc no ED. It was anxiety based before seven, cortisol used to flood her system perhaps (I'm not a clinical psychologist)

No advice but following and offering solidarity as similar here.

Also please please don't worry about being behind on cleaning or being late for school. As a parent you have to grow a very thick skin about an awful lot of things. But it is for a good cause, so your child does NOT have to grow a thick skin when they are still growing and learning.
Thick skin is not the same as resilience when you are a child.

Like this poster states, I think stepping away from traditional parenting is your friend here. It feels like going against everything you've been told but it my experience, completely necessary.
I agree about the cortisol, don't underestimate that flight or flight anxiety response and the effect that has on wellbeing.

Just block out the noise of everyone else, you know who your child is and the best thing you can do it adapt to suit her needs.

I really feel for you and it is incredible that you are doing a lot to help your daughter. I have a very similar situation ( 10 year old boy), also amazing at school but home life can be very different with similar challenges you are facing.

Just to mention that what helps in my case ( child psychologist recommended) is art therapy. Just asking them “ what colour is your anger or a feeling”, having crayons handy and asking to show/draw etc, sometimes I start myself to draw and then he continues. I’ve noticed that this helps a lot and next day the child is much calmer.

You are doing great! Just know that…

I do love her very much, we spend a lot of time together

^

She sounds similar to my daughter, perhaps a bit more extreme.

I've noticed that my DD needs downtime, alone. When she gets argumentative/confrontational I simple stop engaging. It's pointless. I stop talking, stop trying to discuss it. I just leave her be. She usually ends up wandering off, then gets involved in doing something.

Sounds like you have a child who needs time to process the school day. I do feel like my DD finds school draining, being 'on' all day, then it's a release when she gets home.

It's as if you are out of the house at work all day, then can finally be yourself once you're home. But she's 7, so doesn't have the emotional maturity to not argue/rein her behavior in.

My DD is almost 8 and I have noticed a big improvement in her, she's matured a lot in one year.

My DD also has a sensory thing, especially with socks and 'tight' fabrics

@JunglistRaver hi OP. I was just wondering how you were getting on as I have a very similar soon to be 7 year old DS and am at my wits end with how to support him.