Tantrums in 4 year olds?

[jobsagudden]

Hi,

Just looking for a bit of reassurance over whether or not this is normal?

DD1 has tantrums where she screams and kicks, normally once or twice a day. They are more often than not first thing in the morning or last thing at night so pretty certain they are tiredness related.

They usually happen with DH and I can usually calm her down. They last about 5 - 15 minutes but she really goes for it. Screams the house down. Kicking DH or me.

There's nothing going on at home of any cause for concern, everything is stable and no big changes happening, other than starting school in September.

She has always had bad tantrums and we really struggled with her age 2/3 when she could go for hours screaming and crying.

The majority of the time she is a lovely, sweet little girl. She's hitting all her milestones, is really good verbally etc.

When I try and talk to her about why she is screaming, kicking etc. She can't give me an answer.

I know she's not having enough sleep, she goes to bed between 7/8 but wakes up most days at 5 and refuses to go back to sleep. You can tell she's exhausted.

I suppose I'm just wondering if tantrums at this age are normal or if there's any cause for concern and I need to get a referral? If you have a 4 year old DC do they still have regular tantrums?

TIA

@ObviousNameChage they are over random things. E.g yesterday morning she was drawing and wanted a new piece of paper, but I said she had to draw on the back before she had another piece (she'd drawn one line on the front
) because I didn't want her to waste paper. This morning I was having asleep upstairs in the loft with DD2 because she's had a stomach bug, and she wanted me but DH said to leave me as I'd been up all night with DD2. There doesn't seem to be any obvious / reoccurring triggers other than she's knackered.

@ObviousNameChage the kicking happens when we tell her the screaming is not nice and she needs to calm down. So thinking this where we're going wrong and just need to ignore.

My 4 year old has tantrums like this sometimes too. I do what others have suggested and reassure that I’ll be there when she’s calmed down and is ready and then sit out of the way a little - not so far that she feels abandoned but far enough that I’m not suffocating her. When little ones are tantrumming like that their brains have lost control and they are no longer making conscious decisions - for that reason, if she’s hitting our because you are trying to hold/cuddle her whilst she’s mid-meltdown I wouldn’t have a consequence: I’d just talk to her after.

If she’s purposefully choosing to come over to hit or kick you when she appears more in control of her emotions there’d be some consequence. I think it’s about judging how “in control” they are at that point and if they’re making conscious decisions. Little children don’t have impulse control until they’re far older than we think too.

Oh also this is probably teaching you to suck eggs but if you know there’s going to be a tantrum trigger I do often try to find a compromise or give a two way choice. They feel like they have some small level of control/power then which is often what causes tantrums. Eg if it’s over TV/toys etc give a 2 minute warning and set a timer instead of just suddenly stopping. We have this a lot with getting out of the bath at bedtime!’

Or choices - “You can’t have new paper now, the choice is use the back of this paper and we can work together or we can play barbies.” etc.

@Clarkey86 thank you for this. She is definitely unable to control and I can completely relate because I remember being the same as a kid. DH is just the complete opposite as he has never ever struggled with his emotions he's very emotionally stable so just can't fathom her behaviour and can't seem to get his head around the facts she's not doing it on purpose.

My DD2 was like this. I wouldn't record her. I tried it once and actually realised that I just made her feel awful. She is actually always quite ashamed of herself after the tantrums - she just has no control at the time.

With my DD, I think she is just very sensitive and highly-strung and loses control of her emotions quickly. I was worried there was something more to it but she doesn't meet any of the other criteria for ASD or anything like that. She's 8 now and still has the occasional tantrum but has mostly grown out of them - they just gradually lessened as she's become older. Really the best tactic I found when she has then is just to stay in the vicinity but not engage with her. It can be hard as she could become quite destructive - throwing things, lashing out if you got close, but intervening or telling her off (which I did plenty of times!) just seemed to make things worse.

My 4 year does this without the kicking but he can be really dramatic. I also have a 6 year old and he did it too, he actually had quite impressive stamina and could keep the screaming up for hours. Neither have been hitters or kickers though.

The only way I have been able to deal with it is to become ultra calm and not interact. They cannot control their emotions and impulses so they need you to be able to control yours, so it's essential you stay very very calm. Quiet voice, slow movements etc.

Don't even try to calm them or cajole them or snap them out of it, just be near them (not near enough to be kicked in your case!) but don't touch them and let it burn out. I tend to try and just be 'there' but getting on with something else, so be folding laundry or chopping veg or whatever so you're in the same room but not paying any attention at all. These things tend to run out of steam of their own accord or my children often fell asleep! If she comes to hit or kick you, just move away and say calmly 'I know you're angry, but I'm not going to let you kick me' and carry on with what you were doing.

Then afterwards just move on from it. It's pretty normal, my six year old gets huffy now rather than tantrums.

@HotPenguin

I don't think it's that unusual, but I disagree with advice upthread to leave her alone. Is she out of control? If she's lashing out it sounds like it. She can't control her emotions so she needs your help to regulate herself and get back under control. I am not suggesting you pander to her, but telling her in a calm voice ok you are feeling angry right now and describing what you see may help her - eg "you really want chocolate for breakfast but daddy cant let you" or whatever it is.

I suppose all kids are different but that certainly wasn't an option with my Dd. Any attempts to engage including negotiating, reasoning etc would only escalate or prolong the tantrum. I let her know I'd be there for her once she was ready then stood back out of the way of any hits or kicks. You get to know when they are ready but a couple of times I misjudged and it set off a new round of screaming. Once they are calmer you can have a chat about how the behaviour isn't acceptable, what they felt was wrong, what would have been a better way to deal with it, whilst having a long hug then over and on with the day.

Then afterwards just move on from it. It's pretty normal, my six year old gets huffy now rather than tantrums.

Yes, mine huffs and whines now instead 😆🙄

@Clarkey86 yes, good idea. Probably could have been a bit more understanding too to be honest, in hindsight she's a bit of a perfectionist and wanted to draw a perfect unicorn so was probably driving her mad.

@bizboz thanks for this very reassuring and good advice.

@bizboz

My DD2 was like this. I wouldn't record her. I tried it once and actually realised that I just made her feel awful. She is actually always quite ashamed of herself after the tantrums - she just has no control at the time.

With my DD, I think she is just very sensitive and highly-strung and loses control of her emotions quickly. I was worried there was something more to it but she doesn't meet any of the other criteria for ASD or anything like that. She's 8 now and still has the occasional tantrum but has mostly grown out of them - they just gradually lessened as she's become older. Really the best tactic I found when she has then is just to stay in the vicinity but not engage with her. It can be hard as she could become quite destructive - throwing things, lashing out if you got close, but intervening or telling her off (which I did plenty of times!) just seemed to make things worse.

My dd was like this too. I did record her, but not to show her, at the time it was in case we needed to show a professional as I was getting so stressed about the tantrums. The recording really helped me, i had felt overwhelmed by her tantrums, and seeing her on screen she was so little, and so obviously at the end of her tether, that it changed by approach and gave me some perspective. I did as above, sitting in the room with her but letting her have time to calm down. I told her that I was sorry I had been cross with her in the past, that I understood she couldn’t help the meltdown, and that I would stay out of kicking distance but with her and she could come and have a cuddle when she felt ready. It really helped. She stopped the tantrums. They were definitely fuelled by tiredness, she was having night terrors and getting very overtired. That and being hungry were big triggers. She is someone who feels things very deeply, she is a sensitive person .

Yep, my DD is a perfectionist too.

I look after pre-school children, don't underestimate the impact of starting school. Its massive. I read the Charlie and Lola book "I am absolutely too small for school" (or similar) and one of our most confident children was hanging off every word...I realised she was worried that she wouldn't have any friends...even though she is going with other children from our setting...4yr old brains are not rational.

Full on tantrums at this age are very normal...the best piece of advice I ever had was "They can't hear you, they don't want to hear you so just ignore and move in with a hug when the noise ebbs".

Do NOT record her...that's just humiliation and helps nobody. Unless of course you'd like to be recorded when you are having a strop.

We all have tantrums actually...we just get more nuanced.

@SirVixofVixHall this is very sweet and I completely agree with you.

@Streamingbannersofdawn no, I've been really against it, I can actually remember my mum doing it to me when I was a teenager and it was bloody awful.

@Streamingbannersofdawn thanks for this, yes she is very into reading about school at the moment. Her pre school teacher has said she's really confident but she is a huge home bird so this definitely could be affecting her. Whenever I try to talk about it though I don't get anything from her, none of her friends are going to her new school but we have met up with some of the children who will be going.

[quote jobsagudden]@ObviousNameChage they are over random things. E.g yesterday morning she was drawing and wanted a new piece of paper, but I said she had to draw on the back before she had another piece (she'd drawn one line on the front
) because I didn't want her to waste paper. This morning I was having asleep upstairs in the loft with DD2 because she's had a stomach bug, and she wanted me but DH said to leave me as I'd been up all night with DD2. There doesn't seem to be any obvious / reoccurring triggers other than she's knackered. [/quote]
I only have a few things to suggest then, which you might be doing anyways.

1. Don't sweat the small stuff. Like with the paper. I get the idea of not wanting to waste but not using it for drawing doesn't mean it has to go in the bin. It can be repurposed into a paper airplane or other craft, cut up a snow angel, you or her sister could draw on it. Lead by example, oh you made a line(which she probably thought was "wrong") I'll add some thing to it and make into a flower or house or giraffe. Rather than pushing the wanted outcome ,show her. This can obviously be adapted to other things, it's a lot more time consuming than them doing what you say,when you say it but it's a great learning opportunity. Have some strict no negotiables but other than that go with the flow,allow her choices and ask yourself if it's really a big deal. If not let her get on with it, and model what you'd like her to do instead if it suits.

1. Can she have a calm down space? Not as a punishment, but somewhere where she can go and hide/calm down. Where shouting, crying ,ranting is allowed.

1. In the middle of a tantrum she has no control. It's unfair to expect her to snap out of it and rationalise or even to just listen to you. It's not necessarily ignoring the tantrum, but giving her space and time to come out of it so she's actually capable to listen and act accordingly. Keep away from her so she can't hit whether by accident or on purpose. Only once she's calm(and this might take longer than you think even if the tears or screaming has stopped) talk about what went wrong, what she could've done instead etc.

1. A really simple trick(that doesn't work every time of course as it's not magic) , is to add thank you at the end of the request. For some reason kids equate thank you to them already agreeing to the request and it's a given so they're more likely to follow through.

1. Accept that some days/situations will be shit. Kids that age are irrational and their logic defies the laws of nature/science. It doesn't mean you're a bad parent or she's a naughty kid or anything. Everyone has bad days,gets overwhelmed,angry,frustrated etc. Hell, even adults still have a tantrum every now and then.

1. Work with her on recognising feelings/emotions. A lot of posters already suggested she's angry.. but she might not be every single time. She could be tired, hungry, frustrated,worried,scared, sad ,overexcited etc. The fact that it looks angry doesn't mean she always is. Recognising how you're feeling and why it's the first step to controlling it.

1. Try (if you can) and arrange some quiet time when she just gets up and before bed time. Reading,cuddles, soft toys , watching something etc. Preferably with you, so you can guide and ensure it is "chilling" but on her own can work too.Something chilled that doesn't require her to do much or engage her brain a lot. Even kids that are always raring to go, need that time for either their body or their brain to catch up.

1. Reward charts that are focused on positives and behaviour you want to see. Catch her being good and give lots of praise. Specific praise, not just "good girl", or "well done". Tell her often what you like/love about her behaviour,attitude,what she's doing,thank her (same as praise ) specifically when she's doing something positive.

I might be teaching you how to suck eggs, and it's not a magic wand but it should help to have an overall more positive and relaxed environment,less tension and hopefully less reasons to tantrum.

Oh gosh, I apologise for the essay. I was honestly just planning to write 2 things, but it just got longer and longer.🙈

@jobsagudden My nearly 4yo DS is driving me around the bend with his constant tantrums. Did your DD grow out of this and did you adopt any tactics to help you manage this behaviour? X