t feels like dh hates our kids. Please help

[monkey]

We have 3 gorgeous boys, 4, 3 & 6 months. The oldest 2 are great, lively, energetic, normal, fun kids. Lots of people comment on how well behaved they are. If I have an appointment or anything, even a long meeting I can take all 3 along, no bother, unlike most of my friends who always arrange baysitting for any appointment. We can go to cafes & restaurants no bother. they are imo well behaved but lively.

Problem is my dh, their father btw, seems to loose his temper with them at the drop of a hat. He has no tolerance for them at all. There is no build-up it goes from asking to shouting in one second. It is a lot worse the last few months I think. I dread the weekends. If he tells me he has a day off now my heart just sinks because I kow it's just going to be an extra day of listening to him moaning at them or shouting or tears. Every time he does the bedtime routine at least 1 of them cries. All he seems to say to them is 'be quiet, do you have to make so much noise, keep the noise down, shut up'. All day. or 'why don't you just do what you're told?

Everytime practically that he talks to them he has an edge of real annoiance in his voice. It really feels like he hates them.
I jokingly said if he thinks it's noisy now, just wait till the baby is talking & joining in. But actually that's worried me, because I think he will explode.

Meal times are bad. The middle one is a bit bonkers, has no attention span & no concept of when he's gone too far, so dh gets wound up & sends him upstairs all too often.

I feel I am spending all our time as a family walking on eggshells, trying to keep the boys quiet and dh from loosing his temper. it's really getting me down. If we're walking along he gets mad with them for dawdling, even if we're not in a hurry. What kids don't want to walk on the walls or peer at the roadworks and diggers?

I tried to speak to dh about it. He's said he's stressed, but what can I do? I'm already doing the lionshare at home.

My dh was like this after ds2 was born. I dreaded him coming in from work as I never knew whether he would be "nice" dh or "nasty" dh. He had always had so much patience with ds1 and so I was horrified at how impatient and angry he would get with ds2 who was only weeks old. It put a huge amount of pressure on me (I was suffering badly with PND as well) as I didn't trust him alone with ds2 when ds2 was crying non-stop in the evenings. Sometimes I would be crying with tiredness, and he would sort of snatch ds2 away and pound round the house with him - I was terrified he would lose his temper as he would swear under his breath at him when he wouldn't stop crying. I never dared go to bed and leave them alone. He was also incredibly irritable with ds1 - poor ds1 didn't know what was going on.

After a few weeks the light finally dawned (put it down to the PND!) that this was really not normal behaviour for dh. When ds1 was a new baby he had always had more patience than me. I just said to him one day (I was dreading him flying off the handle, but things had become so bad I was going to start making ultimatums) "I think you need to go to the doctor - you are not being yourself," and to my amazement he agreed. The GP said he was suffering from stress related depression - aggravated by extreme tiredness (he was suffering from insomnia too) and put him on anti-depressants and sleeping tablets.

It took a while but his relationship with the kids is now back to normal. He admitted he hated ds2 for a while, but now he absolutely adores him. As I posted on woodpop's thread, he still has unrealistic expectations of what constitutes good or bad behaviour (if he spent as much time around other children as I do he would know that our two are really pretty good!) and some days he is yelling as soon as he gets in the door after work - but he is much more reasonable now, and able to see (when it is pointed out to him ) that he is being too hard on them.

I don't know if your dh would be willing to talk to your GP about his stress - I think men still (generalisation coming up, sorry) find it very hard to talk about their feelings and admit they are not coping. I think my dh had reached the point where he realised we just couldn't go on as we were.

HTH a bit xx

Monkey - i really feel for you. Your children sound like little angels. (I think theres probably a 30 mile radius round us where our two are probably banned form every restaurant and cafe until they're at least 18).

I think Im just repeating everyone else here but it really does sounds like severe stress. Irritability and anger are so closely linked with stress.

I think when you speak to him you've got to take the fact that he's stressed as fact. So rather than asking him whats wrong 'im stressed' - end of conversation.

Start it with ' I know you're really stressed at the moment and I know you've noticed that its having a real effect on all of us. Is there anything that would make things better/more manageable'. Maybe he might open up more????

Hope it gets easier soon.
Kizziex

ok, so following on from our discussion he seems to have tried much harder. We had a few evenings where he was much more patient, especially when he would definitrly normally loose his rag. I obviously was pleased & asked if he was less stressed or trying harder & generally making encouraging noises. A bit of both he reckons.

But then we have had a few big blow-ups. you opinion?

Going to airport to collect visitors, (so not much walking involved) warm day. Ds2 had shorts & t-shirt on. wanted to wear his wellies. I shrugged & didn't see why not. Dh said no. ds screaming with frustration & angewr. Dh extremely angry shouting. why should he get his own way? Why do we have to do what he wants all the time? Why doesn't he just wear his sandals? May argument - what's the big deal, what does it matter if he wears wellies, he doesn't get own way all time, he should be given a say/some control over himself sometimes. Dh not happy with me or ds.

If there's a problem & tend to try & find a solution we all agree on within reason. I mean if it's raining or whatever he wears a coat, no arguments, but otherwise I'm prepared to be flexible. dh thinks I'm too soft, they should do what they're told, why do we have to "pander to their whims" and endlessly negotiate. imo, 'my method' brings about a solution very quickly, usually with no tears, 'his method' usually means at least one is upset, screaming and the tears last far longer than 'talking endlessly about it ' does.

I have also noticed that apart from the noise which is both the boys ( baby usually exempt!) his main frustration is with ds2. Most of the tears, battles etc are with him. Ds1 is more compliant, sane and obviously old. Ds2 is only 3, but much bouncier, livlier, bonkers and if upset tends to yell in frustration. They come to blows frequently, as dh's abrupt shouty heavy handed approach is completely the oposite of what he can deal with, but trying to keep them apart isn't easy.

apart from a very major public show down yesterday things have improved a bit.
thanks for listening.

Message withdrawn

I'm glad there has been some improvement, but I'm afraid his behaviour would still really bother me. He presumably is allowed to choose his own clothes? What's the big deal with his son doing so? You approach is so clearly right and sensible. And of course children need to be allowed to practise making choices and decisions, particularly when they harm nobody and indeed, affect nobody but themselves. Does he want to parent a couple of little slaves or robots? Is there any chance you could talk to him about the children's need - psychologically, developmentally - to feel some control in their lives. It damages kids to feel powerless - and of course, as a good mother you can see this and are making it happen for the kids. I don't know what else to suggest.

My approach to 3 year-olds wanting to wear Wellies matches your own, Monkey, and I can't see that it does any harm whatsoever. And in any case, at that age, I think that (within reason, obviously) the more they learn 'off their own bat' the better. i.e, if his feet got too hot in wellies, or even if he got cold and wet without a coat, is a much better experience towards learning how to make decisions and choices than ordering them about without good reason. I would let him wear the wellies, but have sandals in bag, and if he did get too hot, I'd say 'oh well, what a good thing I have your sandals with me. Next time, shall we see what the weather is like before deciding what to wear?' (ie. I don't do 'I told you so / serves you right'

TBH it sounds as if your dh has problems around control, or may well be depressed. Glad things are a bit better, but he doesn't sound that relaxed if he allowed something so minor to escalate into a 'major public showdown'. Can you find the time/opportunity to do more talking with him? Do you think he might be depressed to the point of it being helpful to see his GP? It does make people hyper-sensitive to noise, fuss, and also aggressive.
were you able to talk about the airport incident later with him? Has he read any 'authritative' childcare manuals such as penelope Leach or Whatisname green - he might 'take it from an exoert' that ordering young children around is not the best way to obtain co-operation and compliance, even if he won't take it from you!
Good luck.

Monkey - I think Aloha is spot on and I would add it's also not good for your kids to see you and your dh fundamentally disagreeing about what they can and can't do. It seems to me that your DH has got into a pattern of behaviour - the 'bad cop' to your 'good cop' and he can't get out of it. If I were you I would sit down with your dh and identify the trigger points in the day where the problems begin eg getting shoes on. then agree some tactics that both of you can work with and present a united front to your children. He reminds me of my FIL who apparantly was always frustrated by 'little' children but began to be much better with his children as they got older (school age). Maybe you could persuade your husband to be less controlling along the lines of 'making limited choices helps them to be more independent and that will eventually make evryone's life easier'. TBH I think you sound great and your approach is the same as mine but even my dp (fantastic with the kids)sometimes says I negotiate too much with them and leave them not knowing where they are.....so maybe say to your dh you both have to change a bit? Poested in mad haste so hope makes sense!

Sorry that you are going through this monkey.I have been through this when my kids were younger but as they've got older this problem has disappeared.I can still tell when he 's had a sressful day at work - its obvious from the minute he walks in the door.I just come out with it now though and tell him to leave work problems at work.

I always worked in the way you do as far as making choices/mistakes go and think it really is the only way to go. IMHO it is also worth pointing out that these days it is not a good idea to raise children to obey immediately and without question what an adult tells them.

Look, I know this might sound easy to say, but I'm not at all sure I'd want to be married to a man I seriously thought might hurt my baby. I think that sort of thing calls for really serious action.

aloha, i hope i never gave the impression my dh would hurt my baby, or any of us.

I realise his extreme impatience can really hurt the boy's feelings, but he is not a violent man.

Not really had chance to speak again with him, but he had good day with them yesterday. fwit, i'm having an absolutely horrendous day with ds2 today, he is being very challenging. lucky dh is at work.

Thanks so much for your continued support and tips and ideas

Hi, monkey. Can't really think of any helpful advice but agree with Blu that a good child care/development book might change your dh's attitude a bit? If he hasn't the time or inclination to read a whole book maybe you could just highlight some relevant bits. (Toddler Taming, being written by a man, might be good one.) The thing with the wellies is classic - such an unimportant issue on the face of it but gets turned into WW3 about making them "mind".

Men generally don't really seem to "get" child psychology - have had discussions (!) for years with DH about the idea that negative attention is always better to a child than none at all.

I'm sorry ds2 is giving you a hard time today. Hope it gets better. Chin up!

Sorry if I misunderstood. I was lucky in many ways that my dh had a child already when we met and I was able to see in advance what kind of dad he'd be. I liked what I saw!

Monkey really feel for you. My ex H was and still is like this. I also used to dread weekends. I think you need a plan of attack. How about deputising him to organise all the taking of stuff out to the car etc while you wrestle small feet into shoes etc. I think men like your dh need to be kept busy otherwise they look for jobs to do and then get annoyed when they don't do them well.
Sit down with him on a Friday night and work out how you can both make wk-ends easier. Focus on the stuff he is good at and possibly enjoys and get him to do as much of it as possible. I think men enjoy feeling like they have achieved things and are good at them, so if you can somehow encourage this, it may help.
Seems a shame you have to do all this on top of everything else.

Monkey, you dh sounds alot like mine, perhaps not quite so extreme but he hates noise and all the toys and he can't understand why they won't do as their told.
I can honestly say i think its work related because he's has a hard time at work recently etc and yesturday he has been given another job he applied for its a drop in money but if hes more calmer and happy i don't mind. We'll just squeese in our belts abit more. And soon i should be working if i can get something.
I think all you can do is talk to him and try to make him understand what he is doing and how its upsetting you to be in teh middle of it all the time. much sympathy and hugs and hope you sort it out.

I haven't read all of these in detail, but still get the problem with dh. It seems that he (and lots of Dads mentioned here) doesn't get the concept of 'don't sweat the small stuff'. I agree, a child wearing wellies isn't a big issue, let him if he wants to. But many men (not all of course) see this as open defiance, and have to try to force their will on the kids (they are not allowed to with wives anymore you see )

My dh has also accused me of too much negotiation with ds, and said 'Why can't he just do as he's told?'

I've pointed out that it is because he is a bright, active, confident child, who wants to find out how the world works for himself. I've said "you wouldn't want a dreadful "pudding" child would you, who just did what he was told, and never had ideas for himself?"

I missed all this monkey but just wanted to add my support. You are right about the wellies and you sound so calm and tolerant - you're doing a great job managing 3 kids by the sound of it. I hope you find a way to resolve this.

thanks www -nice to 'hear' from you again. I still haven't had a big talk with him. Problem is he's a great 'arguer' he can't help putting his lawyer/politicians hat on and just ties me up in knots - I need a delay of about 3 weeks to make any retort, plus I have a crap memory, so any discussions are hopeless failings on my part, so I guess I feel unequal to the task, plus we're so busy/tired with the impending move it's hard to find a good moment. I did tape an episode of Little Angels which I think is especially pertinant but he's yet to agree to watch it.

Sad but pleased to hear I'm not the only one in this position. He is otherwise great, honest, I really see this as being an unfortunate phase, just rather a long and difficult one. He recognises that splitting the boys up is much better, for them and for him, so will try that one again. Prob. again, with the move is I could really do with him taking the boys out so I can do some packing, so it's a trade off - my sanity and stress & taking on too much to try and avoid him having to deal with ds's 1 & 2 & getting fed up with them.

No plans for him to be a sahd.

I have found avoiding tv, alcohol & having early nights really help too.
thanks again.

Monkey, this situation makes me think very much of an article that was in the Observer colour suplment at the w/e, i think (or in the Guardian mag on SAt): a new book by Edward de Bono explains that arguing is always about an individual wanting to excercise their ego, not to listen or genuinely facilitate a shared understanding. I think it's something we're all guilty of sometimes (even on MN!!! ) but it does seem to ring true of this one aspect of how you describe the way your DP argues. Maybe you could read the book and see if it has suggestions.

Update - we finally had the big talk & it was ok. Didn't come about in form of argument, with me finally snapping at him being horrid to kids. He was off sick on Monday, due to being so tired 9I know, bless) luckily I've had this thread & your ideas & support, so handled it really well. Normally I would have shouted, been really cross, as me rushiong round getting 3 boys ready, doing the packing etc & at last minutes having to drive 3 hour round trip to new house with 3 kids to speak to tile man, all while he's lying in bed feeling tired & miserable!

I listened really well, didn't beat him to a bloody pulp etc. He himself raised the issue of him being rotten to kids, not feeling like good dad etc as well as other issues. One thing that came out was that work, rather than being to stressful was, if anythig the opposite, as his boss is seemingly looking elsewhere & pretty much given up, no longer challenging him etc.

He has been fine actually since with the kids, I think he shocked himself.

We both recognise that he needs miles more sleep than any normal human. Unfortunately his preferred body clock is to stay up till 3am & get up at noon, 1 pm, but in a world of work & kids this isn't possible. We both also suffer from the desire to flop in front of tv & with a drink or 2, end up going to bed too late then he's tired & bad tempered the next day.

So what is required is a lifestyle change, which is really hard when we both suffer this weakness - he's actually more strong willed than me on this. Less tv, less boozee, more exercise, more routine, especially at weekend. But I feel I'm the one who has to make it wotk or he'll be just as bad.

So how do you radically change your life, when you actually like what you're doing, even if you know it's bad? (I guess it's like giving up smoking even though you love it)???

Re: changing lifestyle I'd suggest not trying to do everything at once. Maybe try to get to bed at a reasonable hour every night and perhaps incorporate some exercise into the weekend - a ball and bat game with the two eldest or a walk in the park? Get that working before you try to cut out the booze and tv.

Monkey

Haven't been on Mumsnet for ages, but having had two nights now where DH has slept on Sofa, I was looking for an answer.
Straightaway, came to your post,and you could be talking about our family.
WE also have three children, busy jobs, my DH hates his and has tried to move, but cannot find anything he wants, or could do.

Only thing I can say for you is don't be too hard on yourselves (both of you). Having three young children is hard, ours are 10 and two 8, and unless you have a break it can really grind you down.

I've felt very sad today, am fed up of all the rowing, and the children winding each other up, and bickering, so have decided tonight that I am not going to let them get me down, if they want to be unhappy fine, but I am going to be Sunny and Happy because lifes too short.

Take care, hope you can work it out