Managing a 'spirited' 4 year old?!

[suddenlycupishalffull]

I'm sure this has been asked a million times before...she's always been spirited but a golden girl at pre-school. Last week, her teacher pulled me over & said a few times she refused to look at her when being spoken to or do as she's told, very very unusual for her in that setting but at home very normal if she's frustrated or angry. I'm not concerned, I think it's healthy & normal for kids to test boundaries...but I don't know how to handle her testing those boundaries without crushing her spirit. So today I asked her to clear up a mess she'd made playing...no...point blank refused...but she's smirking at me, and when I get down on her level to ask her again, she tries to run off, laughing, it's a game. I feel like I have no teeth in the situation because she's too young to really value anything (she doesnt care about screen time etc). I do say 'unless you do as you're told, we won't go to the park/bake etc' & I do follow through with that threat (though God knows a day in with a baby & not yet 4 year old is more a punishment for me than her!!). So my question is how do I handle those moments of defiance? The no, I'm not doing it, what you gonna do about it? I think this is what has happened at pre-school, the teacher has asked her to listen & she's just shut down & refused, it that's I want to handle well. I don't want to make her meek, I do not want a meek daughter, but I want her to respect my authority & do as I say (whilst acknowledging that the very nature of a 4 year old is to test boundaries!!)

Yesterday I said to four children "Yes, you can watch the DVD but you need to put the blocks away first". The two 5 and a half year olds rushed to put the blocks away. The two 3 and a half year olds (who were the ones who'd actually been playing with the blocks) just looked at me as if to say "No way, let's fight about this all night". A lot of it is age. Just keep doing what you are doing (ie have an ultimate consequence/punishment - whichever word you prefer - for not doing what they are asked) and that, together with your DS getting older, will get you there. I use a star chart with my 3 year old and 5 year old. Each day they can earn up to one star for "being sociable" (eg sharing, reasonable behaviour on playdates or at supermarket or whatever we are doing out and about that day), one star for "helping round the house" (eg tidying up toys, helping clear table, helping sort washing) and another one for whatever I am trying to work on at the moment (eg getting to sleep without fussing for me to sit in the room). Once it is filled in (which they could do in a week but obviously some days they miss stars so overall it takes about two weeks) they can choose a toy or book as a prize. It does make the whole thing feel a bit more positive. Dreading the 3 year old turning 4 though. 4 to 5 was by far my most difficult year with my older DS, but now he's 5.5 it feels a lot easier.

Eigg you are brill, where were you when I needed you three years ago? Mind I probably would have run screaming from your advice back then.

The part about crushing the spirit being something said by parents who are a bit reluctant to set boundaries is spot on. What happened in my case was I got sucked into a load of gentle parenting sites. Gentle parenting is great, I still think so, but the thing is that those sites are written for people who are naturally authoritative and punitive and want to soften their parenting, not people who are naturally soft. A naturally soft parent (ie, me) reads those sites and tries really hard to implement everything, but it falls short of the mark because you're coming at it from a different angle. You don't need to give more chances, you need to learn how to give less. You don't need to add slack to boundaries, you need to tighten them so that by the time they are reaching the boundary, you're still in control and not panicking. I'm learning this stuff now but the damage has been done. DS is getting easier but mostly because he's getting older. He's still horrible towards me when he doesn't get his own way.

I really can't do the voice. I can occasionally summon it when I'm a vvv rare combination of pissed off, but not frustrated, tired, but not sleepy, and have reached a limit but am not totally flailing and panicking because I'm past my limit. When I just simply feel "done". Not angry, not frightened, not manic, just done. Then it comes. But I can't get it at any other time.

I like the gentle parenting techniques for managing behaviour before it gets to crisis point, but naturally soft parents need to learn how to set boundaries in a healthy way as well. The real "click point" for me was when I thought about discipline/consequences I might face at work - none were particularly something I wanted to happen, but all were things I could cope with, if it came to it, and accept. So I decided at that point, that was the dealbreaker for me. I started using consequences but I decided that I would never ever use a punishment that I didn't feel my child could handle and cope with - that's the issue with harsh punishments for me - I don't want to put my child into that level of fear and anxiety. It should be something which is inconvenient or unpleasant but not ever frightening or confusing or mentally scarring. (I know that probably sounds obvious to most people, but when I was conflating all punishments with scary, awful, terrible things it helped to be able to mentally separate them out like that.)

And not just "how to give less chances" but more how to manage your own feelings about reaching that last chance and really following through with it and that it's actually okay and very very helpful to draw a line under it and say nope, you didn't make it this time. You don't get endless chances. I can see that you're trying this time, but next time try on the first time. Sorry buddy.

It is STILL really hard for me to implement a last chance. And so I avoid it subconsciously and it causes no end of issues.

My 3 year old is so strong willed! Give her 2 choices and she'll find her own third. A big one was walking down the road, she refused to hold my hand, and run off ahead. Reins wasn't an option as the resulting meltdown isn't worth it so we've made a game of it. We have "traffic lights". She can run off to her hearts content, I can call "Red", or "Green" and she can stop or go accordingly. She's got really good at winning which is very important to her so she doesn't misbehave. She's not naughty just likes to do things her own way, in her own time. The traffic lights game is lovely. She giggles away when I walk ahead saying "Red...red...red..." making her wait while I walk off then when I finally green, she races ahead! Recently we've added "Reverse" where she walks like a robot backwards to me. It makes walking anywhere so much less stressful.

The minute I try and implement rules, she will fight me every step. If I ask her a favour or make it a game, she will fall over herself to be sweetness and light! We're working on apologies. It's not going well...

Any tips on how to practice the voice would be awesome. We have the tiniest house ever, but there are times when I'm alone. I totally cringe watching myself on film so that's not an option. In fact I totally cringe at the sound of my own voice in general, which is probably the issue. How can I increase my confidence here? DH is insistent that getting a dog will teach me the voice, but I think he just wants a dog TBH and although his calm authoritative voice is good, I sometimes find his "NOW you've crossed a line" voice a bit scary and harsh

Ha the 4 year olds being all 'no way we're gonna argue about this all night!...' - that's my DD! I have started saying 'if you can't share, we can't all play together and have fun...' and that does seem to be working. I'm finding the point of view on gentle parenting really interesting cos I am drawn to that, but perhaps it is more helpful for parents who want to soften their approach, whereas what I need to do is be more authoritative. DH has it. He has a voice he uses, it's not a shout, it's not loud, but it's a don't mess with me, and we all respond to it! Drives me nuts cos I just can't replicate it, I sound whiney and weak in comparison! Anyway, I'm using this as the excuse I've needed to get a dog so I can practice my obey me voice :)

Lots of good stuff on this thread - going to try most of it out on my extremely challenging 4 yo dd1.

Can I just add my top tip though - especially when faced with a mess they've made or similar and that total point blank refusal - is that you don't have to decide what to do straight away.
If dd1 refuses I say, "I hear what you are saying but that's not good enough - I'm going to think what should happen next" or something similar. Then I go into the kitchen, make a cuppa or something and think out my next move - punishment, bribery, make it a game, whatever. You don't have to decide on the spot - the mess isn't going anywhere and they get thinking time as well. Sometimes I come back to find she's done what I asked anyway! :)

Oh and then we talk about it afterwards when everyone has calmed down.

So for eg yesterday dd1 pushed dd2 over and dd2 bumped her head. I tried to get dd1 to see what she had done and tell her off for hurting dd2 but she refused to listen and ran off to the other end of the park. I comforted dd2 instead and thought about what to do. I told dd1 we would deal with it later.
So then later after we got home I sat her down to talk about it - and she listened when she wouldn't earlier. And she played really nicely with dd2 to make up for it the rest of the afternoon.

If I'd reacted on the spot and dragged her home as I wanted to, the rest of the day would have been miserable for everyone and she would have just been cross and resentful and wouldn't have learned anything from it.