"Triple P" course at odds with attachment theory... anyone done it?

[pookamoo]

DH & I started a Triple P course run by our local Children's Centre last week.
We have read ahead in the handbook and there is a huge emphasis on praise, time-outs, consequences and so-on.

It feels wrong to us. We have always leant towards attachment parenting, and have read plenty of research on time-outs etc which suggest they are not effective in the long term (no judgement on those who use them, though!).

Has anyone completed the course coming from this angle and found it to be helpful?

I am reading Dr Laura Markham's "Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids" book at the same time, and while the advice she gives is far more inline with our way of thinking as a family, I can't help feeling we may be massively judged if we question (politely) the advice given on the course...

You cannot separate own sense of achievements or otherwise from the values of those around you. We are social beings and we learn by behaving in ways that produce reactions in others. very much so & by catching them being good & praising you reinforce that behaviour (occasionally they will not repeat it to try & 'punish' you)

Starlight

They did actually say (in the book I was reading) that acknowledging your family's values was important as of course, you want to pass these on to your children. I am far from an expert though... and feeling it!

I guess the research they have done is across a broad spectrum of developing children so some will reflect the reported outcome and some won't. Only problem is, my DC have not read the research to decide which category they fall into!

Another thing my mum suggested was picking your arguments

No-one really cares if they wear wellies in July; most people will object if their child is being thumped. So between you & DP decide on one unacceptable behaviour & only discipline on that one for a few days - just to see what happens, try & combine it with catching them being good

I think what a lot of these books and courses do is make you focus on what you're doing, when most of us muddle along til it gets out of control

For me the course would be a teen one. The aim would also be to get my ex and I to agree to the same boundaries, otherwise it's confusing that ex will ignore personal insults and I won't

A strategy helps us feel in control, whatever that is I think

My ds is nearly 13 so a different strategy is needed!

I think I would work out a strategy to tackle your tiredness first. In your sleep deprived state I think that putting in place any sort of consistent strategy might be challenging.

I have a very sensitive DD, with a new baby in the house and she's just started school as well. Things that have helped us include:

• naming her feelings as per "How to..." Book. This has been invaluable as I think it helps her understand what is happening to her and see it as normal, I.e. we all feel sad, miss people, feel frustrated, etc.

• giving her outlets for her feelings, so if she looks as if she might cry I encourage her to do so telling her everyone cries every so often and sometimes we feel better after a good cry. We also go and beat up the mattress and the sofa and shout out the things that frustrate us.

• with the new DS I try to spend 20 minutes each day just with DD. It's called DD time and she gets to chose what we play with while DH has DS. I appreciate this sounds almost silly in its simplicity but it was a suggestion in a book and I was surprised at how well it works.

• where possible I emphasise her choices, e.g. what to wear, what to eat, who has bath time first etc.

• time out has been exceptionally effective for us. I have only had to use it a handful of times for serious problems, in our case hitting, and while the first time I did it, it was tough, after that it worked immediately.

• this sounds a bit hippy but I think it works with 'sensitive souls' that do well with validation: I sit DD down and give her a list of things I like about her, e.g. you are kind, you are helpful, you are a great big sister, etc.

Hope some of these ideas are of use to you.

Sorry, I'd don't know how I managed to write such a rambling post and miss out the fact that I did a lot of AP stuff (bf, sling, co-sleeping, no crying) as well.

Thanks booboostoo I really like the idea of a list

I have no idea how to tackle the tiredness, fantail and I am very aware that inconsistency is a problem. Trying to be really tough seems to end up in shouting matches... so there needs to be a half way house somewhere!

I know that MNing into the late night doesn't help, but it is a bit of me-time after everyone's asleep. Shame they were both up at 4am

Tiredness is shocking, I can sympathise. I also use late nights as me time when if I was sensible I would be asleep.

Can you work out a way to catch up a little, then work out your boundaries around sleep and what you want to aim for and how you will motivate to achieve that goal?

So is your first goal for DD2 to settle without you or to stay the whole night in her bed (even if you take her back).

I know I am a much better parent when I am well rested.

Well, I don't really notice her coming in, and the bed is big enough, so I would be more concerned about getting her to settle at bedtime more quickly. Usually i lie with her until we both fall asleep!

I'm not really sure how I could catch up... DD2 doesn't nap in the day, and when she's at preschool I need to do the jobs that can't get done with a 3 year old in tow, so the only thing I could do is go to bed at 8pm, I think! Which I have done many times, although the sleep defecit is so big at this stage it makes little difference. I keep waiting for her to just grow out of it.

My first goal is currently to try to make more 1:1 time with each DD. I wish DD2 would settle better at bedtime so I could have proper 1:1 with DD1 at bedtime, but I am trying to make up for it in the day wherever I can. It really helps us connect better, i.e. less shouting!

I think time outs are cruel for many kids- maybe tough kids can take them but it is about withdrawal of love and attention and i just find that weird....all parenting styles are not equal-go with your gut.
Loads of research suggests banal praise is bad too- I am in the US and there is a strong movement of people who actually will not hire babysitters if they say "Good Job" - I guess like well done in the UK..or praise kids....anyway it can be taken to extremes but there is some old school stuff out there that many believe can be damaging.
Love Dr Markham too- great strategies.

"I think time outs are cruel for many kids- maybe tough kids can take them but it is about withdrawal of love and attention and i just find that weird"

No, it doesn't have to be that. 'Time-out' is not about love and attention. For me (and my children) it's a 'line in the sand'. It reinforces that they have stepped out of their generous boundaries. It gives them time to calm down and come to their own realisation of the wrongness of their action (I only use time out for violence or gross defiance, btw).

Any parenting approach may be taken to a harmful extreme. I know lots of 'natural parents' and some of the stuff they do is frankly barmy. One of them uses this response when her child lumps mine:

"Oh DD3.... just ignore X's behaviour (who has just punched you!!!). He's feeling unhappy on the inside right now which is why he's hurt you...." Even DD3 (who was 4) looked at me like

That child's behaviour now, at 6, is pretty shocking and we have faded contact. Another friend who herself is as AP as you like is struggling to the extent that she is cooling contact because there are no limits to behaviour, just frustrated 'oh my goodness X, I'm not liking that behaviour...'

Children crave attention, it's true. They crave positive regard but they'll turn to negative behaviour if it gets attention.

I believe that children don't know societal boundaries for behaviour, which are clearly artificial constructs because in years gone by we accepted all sorts of behaviour that is illegal now! Our job as parents is to build their self esteem, clearly be there for them and teach them how to function in society.

That society is not going to value their temper tantrums, disregard for adult direction, etc. Quite frankly, if they're going to go to a school, they'll have to understand that in a class of 30 children the teacher can't spend their day constructing delicate negotiations around every request. They've just got to do what they're asked.

Praise doesn't have to be banal! Quality over quantity, sure.

'I think time outs are cruel for many kids- maybe tough kids can take them but it is about withdrawal of love and attention and i just find that weird'

Why would you shower your child with love and attention after they have just chased a sibling/playdate around the house with a pair of scissors?

I would find THAT far more weird.

Time-out allows a halt to any scenario, time to ensure that a strategy for dealing behaviour can be properly considered and applied. If used regularly (not necessarily every day/week/month) and the expectations surrounding it are understood and complied with it can provide a very safe way of regrouping and calming down the household. 'Perpetuator' understands their behaviour was unacceptable enough to trigger it, 'victim' knows they have respite for their torment. By all means make a note of the context and behaviours to discuss at a family council or whatever if you like your children to learn more about the details of why their behaviours are not appropriate or unsafe.

The research shows you should praise for the effort that has gone into the behaviour rather than the ultimate outcome, which is why you would not treat all children equally.

A 6yr old child tagging along to a classical concert of Wagner that their older sibling has asked to go to would require quite substantial praise for sitting quietly. The older sibling would not benefit from it.

I think time outs are cruel for many kids- maybe tough kids can take them but it is about withdrawal of love and attention

Time-out is not about withdrawal of love. You still love your child, and throughout the process you deal with them lovingly. What's more, you conclude the time-out with a reassuring expression of love.

And as for withdrawal of attention, do you spend every moment paying attention to your child? It is perfectly normal for a child not to have your constant attention. The most contented and secure children do not have constant attention from their significant adults. I'm not saying that withdrawal of attention brings about contentment and security, but that - used properly - it is a valid tool.

Interestingly enough, this week's session seemed to come so close to almost being attachment-led, and touched on similar points to the Peaceful Parenting book. In particular they spoke about developing a bond with your child, although a lot of it was to do with heaping praise on for the smallest thing they do that is "good". I am inclined to agree with starlight's point about praising the effort.

So they talked about "strategies" for getting the children to do what the parents want them to do. We had to pick two. I've picked "ask say do" and one that I am going to interpret as improving my connection with the DCs (as per Laura Markham). We just told them that the reward charts wouldn't work for our family. (they really wouldn't, we did try a couple before and the DC saw straight through them!).

Then... just as we were going, someone asked a question that led onto consequences (or punishment). The course leader said that we would come onto that later, but that parents need to work on building the relationship we have with our child because otherwise consequences don't matter as the child "cares less". So now I am a bit scared that we're talking about buidling up connections with our children only to have them trashed by time-outs. I take previous posters' points about time-outs, but I prefer "time-in" which I just made up for myself I think! By which, I mean that children who are struggling to adhere to boundaries etc i.e. "acting up" usually need time-in with the adult, rather than to be excluded...

I use a version of 'time out' if a child has hurt someone, I ask them to sit down and think about what they have done and how that person feels, the younger they are the more supported they are with expressing that

'Time in' is an approach used by lots of APs.

I disagree with it as a reaction to violence, for instance. It means leaving the hurt party and heaping attention on the person who has hurt them.

Yes it doesn't work if there's only one adult.....fortunately I'm not in that position often

Sorry I didn't think of that

I ask my children to sit on a step/go to their room, calm down and think about their behaviour. That gives me time to comfort the injured party and explore with them whether they contributed to the incident. 99% of the time they did. Then the hurter gets to apologies to the hurt, often followed by an unsolicited apology from the hurt party for their part in proceedings.

That's spookily similar to what happens here - esp the 'victim' apologising too

"Sit on the floor & think about what you did" is pretty much a quote, to the point that a child asked his mum to when she wasn't co-operating with him......

Sometimes a child who is acting up is indeed doing so in order to get more attention from their adult. Of course they need extra attention. Giving them that attention reinforces the behaviour that preceded the attention.

Two of mine are jealous of my attention. One of them becomes introverted and glum when the other has my attention, the other becomes invasive and aggressive when the first has my attention. It happens with their dad as well. So if no2 plays up when I am giving no1 attention, 'time-in' is exactly the wrong thing for us to do, even when both dh and I are around.

I completed PPP a few months ago and my parenting has changed. PPP worked fully for me and DC.

While I was doing the course dc1 seemed to be constantly on time out. As I started giving DC more positive attention time out decreased now it seems that dc1 is only on time out about 1-2 times a week.

I can also do full week shop with both DC and they both respond really well. (Dc2 is only 1.5)

PPP saves my sanity with dc1 behaviour. Now dc1 knows if I give the warning dc1 will get attention to stop it but if dc1 does it again dc1 won't get the attention as it will be time out.

Ppp does take time and other people I've been on the course with has not had it work for them but it has with me.

Worst thing I hated was the role playing and putting another mum on time out and doing ask say do with another mum. It was a laugh though and I got something out of it.