Unconditional parenting peeps - WWYD in this situation?

[substitutemycokeforgin]

Or what would you have done, rather ... I know it's trivial in the scheme of things, but had a horrible situation with DD (7) yesterday. We were getting in the car to drive to a country park, she wouldn't put her wellies on as her siblings had done, but insisted on wearing her trainers. Recently she's been finding excuses not to wear her wellies, and wearing her trainers instead in all sorts of unsuitable muddy places and bringing them home a filthy wreck. I've had enough of this - she's not the one who has to clean them.

I said she could wear her trainers in the car but we needed to bring her wellies to wear in the park as it would be muddy. I don't think she really responded at this point, which was probably where the whole thing went wrong - I didn't get express agreement from her beforehand ... Anyway, cue arriving in the park, damp muddy day, and she refused point blank to put on the wellies. I explained that I wasn't prepared to wash muddy trainers yet again, shortening their life, when she has perfectly good wellies. We all wanted to get out of the car and into the park, including her, and I was urging her to think about it and do the right thing. I know she knew that by taking the wellies with us, that meant I expected her to wear them in the park. I tried to establish why she didn't want to wear them - made her legs uncomfortable, apparently, so I suggested getting long thick knee socks to avoid this, but she wouldn't agree to this either. In the end we turned round and drove home. I was calm with her and didn't shout, but made it clear what I expected her to do. But the day obviously didn't end well.

So I think I messed up, and I'm just looking for opinions/advice thrown into the ring here, really, on what I should have done instead without using bribes, punishments, rewards etc. Also, do you lovely UP people know of any dedicated forums for UP/AP parents? Thank you!!

[freddiemisagreatshag]

OP, you said the trainers are your daughter's tennis shoes - Does she have lessons? If so, how does she cope in the lessons because surely the coach has to say "everybody line up" or "pick up your racket" or "hold it this way for a backhand"?

[Floggingmolly]

You needed to get express agreement from her beforehand...

[SouthernComforts]

I do not UP, but I think my response would be to let her wear the trainers, get muddy and cold, don't wash the trainers then explain to her why they are filthy when she wants nice clean trainers for tennis. Then ask her if she would like to a) clean them or b) wear her wellies for tennis. Lesson learnt.

Btw I only have a very very strong willed 3 year old. Yes I shout sometimes, but sometimes you can't just say 'ok dd let's go home then you don't have to do as you're told'

Out of interest, how do you handle situations when one dc has to do something they don't want to? Eg. Dc1 has a Dr appointment, dc2 dosent want to put shoes and coat on? Surely you don't cancel the Drs app??

Geniune question

[bryte]

I am sure I am repeating what someone else has said over the past 8 pages but..... insisting that your DD wear wellies doesn't sound inline with UP.

I think the fact you let her wear the wellies in the car and then expected her to change is what made this situation get you to a stage where you've asked this question. Either, tell all children that they need to be wearing their wellies before you will get in the car to drive them to the country park or accept that wearing trainers isn't such a bad alternative.

I've recently witnessed true UP and unconditional grandparenting towards a 3 year old. The grandparents had parented in that way and then it was natural for the son to parent in that way. This 3 year old was 'allowed' to go barefoot in the muddy park. The whole weekend no one raised their voice or issued threats or enforced their will and I did not see a spoilt child, just a very loved, independent, mature 3 year old.

Though, I do think it is easier to practice that sort of parenting with support and only one child. I incorporated what I could of UP, trying hard to override my default mode from the type of parenting I received.

Perhaps just chalk up the welly incident to a bad day and next time do it differently.

[puds11isNAUGHTYnotNAICE]

Is unconditional parenting basically just letting your child get away with things?

If it was my DD I would have gotten her to put her wellies on before we left the house, on the understanding that if she didn't, she wasn't allowed to go to the park.

I am really miffed at how its good parenting to make your other DC's miss out simply because one wouldn't cooperate? Surly that just breeds resentment between siblings?

[fluffywhitekittens]

Interesting Zappo. I was thinking more in line with teaching issues in regards to an UP child.
I am making the assumption that it's not the teachers threatening to punch in the mouth if children don't do something...

[BlueberryHill]

My DH would have been the child in the wellies, his sister would have been the one in the trainers getting her own way. SIL was always the one that throws the strops and get what she wants, DH was the dependable one that got on with things and was the peacemaker in the family, puts aside his needs / feelings to keep the peace and not cause a rift.

It is still like that 30 years on, annoys the hell out of me, because his parents still dance around her, only she is more manipulative / forceful so she gets her way. DH sees it all and knows the fault lines in his family, he still feels pissed off about it but knows he cannot change it.

Maybe think about the feelings of your other children, maybe they didn't kick off but it has happened so many times before and they know what the outcome is. I'm not saying that this is the situation in your family but have an honest think, are you just appeasing her because she is loudest and the others have just learnt that that is what always happens. She did win by the way.

[exoticfruits]

Yes, exotic, I don't know what I would have done if the others had got upset. Which was why I was on here asking for opinions.

Any parenting should be fair. You shouldn't do the unfair thing and hope that you can get away with it because the easy going children let you.
The opinions don't fit with UP-they can't. I suppose the only one was to let her wear them and get them muddy and leave it as her problem-don't discuss in any way. When she needs them and complains they are muddy just say in a thoroughly bored, disinterested way -'it is your problem-you deal with it' and then let her go out in muddy shoes or wet shoes if she washes them.

45 years later, and I still remember feeling so angry with my mum for letting him ruin it for us all.

I think that is the real problem-as the sibling- you don't care how your mother does it -you just want her to stop being wet and not to let him get his own way!

[exoticfruits]

SIL was always the one that throws the strops and get what she wants

A friend of my mother's had a mother just like that! Firstly her parents gave into her and then her husband. When she was very elderly she went into care and for the first time in her entire life people ignored the strop! It was a bit sad for her that it took so long to learn the lesson. Needless to say she had a very poor relationship with her own daughter.
There are times when parents just need to say 'no' and stick to it.

[exoticfruits]

This 3 year old was 'allowed' to go barefoot in the muddy park. The whole weekend no one raised their voice or issued threats or enforced their will and I did not see a spoilt child, just a very loved, independent, mature 3 year old.

She wasn't though was she? Someone had to deal with her muddy feet at the end and clean them off before she got in the car (unless they are perfectly happy to have mud on the seats) if it was this time of year they needed something warm for the feet if she got freezing cold, they needed a first aid kit if she stood on broken glass and they needed to look out for dog poo.
It is perfectly easy to explain to a 'mature' 3 year old the very sensible reasons as to why they can all have a more relaxed time with wellies on.

[exoticfruits]

Out of interest, how do you handle situations when one dc has to do something they don't want to? Eg. Dc1 has a Dr appointment, dc2 dosent want to put shoes and coat on? Surely you don't cancel the Drs app??

You can't-it all falls down-especially if you are running late and in a hurry.

[SouthernComforts]

Exactly, at some point you have to draw a line. Sometimes the adult has to make a decision for the child that the child dosen't like. That's life.

[racingheart]

What I don't get in this debate is how exactly the parenting was 'unconditional'. It was entirely conditional on the fact that the mother didn't want to have to clean the trainers. It was conditional on her refusing to allow trainers to get muddy. It was conditional on the child having to wear footwear that hurt or cancelling a plan. It ended with the punishment of all the family having a trip out cancelled because of the pitting of wills between a child and a parent. Two dominant characters, neither of them in wholehearted pursuit of enjoying a day out.

There is nothing unconditional in the scenario.

[Sulawesi]

3 year old running around in the mud in bare feet?! That's just downright irresponsible, as exotic says there could be broken glass, dog poo, a flint, syringes anything in there - bonkers - not independent - irresponsible and in cloud cuckoo land.

[Floggingmolly]

Is the whole concept of up based on avoiding conflict? Because that could apply equally to parents who want an easy life, and will sanction any sort of nonsense to ensure they get one. Hardly in the child's best interests?

[Floggingmolly]

How can you be so definite about that, HeyHo? Do you live deep in the inner reaches of Epping Forest?

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Op I've only got to page 4 so forgive me if the has already been said.

What happened in the car was not unconditional patenting it was reactionary. The point where it ceased to be unconditional parenting was before you got into the car.

Instead of let's go to the park ect ect you can wear your trainers in the car,as you did it next time try.

Would you like to go to the park, if we do everybody has to wear weather appropriate footwear this means wellies/ walking boots if you feel unable to do so then those that don't will be responsible for there own clean up,it would be unfair on others for us to change our minds when we get there so lets decide what to do now.

You cannot just go down the route of the child picking there own actions unless you make sure they are aware of the ripple of those actions and how they impact on others,

You can also not do so unless you have all needed tools, knowing one child has current wellie issues but you have no other suitable footwear for her shows bad planning almost like your forcing her ( unknowingly) to chose the disruptive to others enjoyment route.

Getting her wellies for her ( if you hadn't had time to obtain other footwear) actually placing thick socks inside and over the rim of them perhaps with cotton wool also over the rim but under the sock and asking her to try them to see if it changed her issue with them.

A 'messy' old pair of trainers

Or even two plastic bags worn tied over her trainers to protect them from the weather resulting in them not needing to be washed

The way it ended up sounds like it backed her into a corner forcing her to the refusal and to stand firm in her stance it did not assist her to change her mind or allow her to enjoy an activity she wished to do.it also punished her and the other dc's who had acted accordingly with due regard to expectations.and created stress for you.

Providing a way out with no conflict is a very good way of making sure a actual choice is made but no way out can often force a choice that's more often than not,the choice the dc does not want to make but feels they have to making it not a real choice.

Does that make sense I'm not sure if I have explained it very well.

[exoticfruits]

At certain times of year and in certain places it is fine. But the 3 year old is making work for all the others in the party-it is much nicer for everyone if they just have a good time and as they get back in the car/house they can just take the boots off and possibly the coat. By the time the child is old enough to be completely responsible for cleaning themselves up, and watching out for hazards, they are old enough to see the sense of wellies. If they are only 3 yrs and 'mature' then it should be easy enough for them to understand, if put to them nicely, that mummy doesn't want a muddy car, want to have to do baths, get bowls of water, take towels and socks etc. The aim should be to to make the child considerate of all-not something that comes naturally to a small child-they need to be helped.
I don't think that it is unconditional-the parent always has an agenda and the child is supposed to come around to the parents way of thinking-it falls down when you have the sort of child who doesn't!
With the child in the park with grandparents I bet no one would have had to shout or enforce their will to get her into wellies. She most likely wasn't the sort of child to think it fun to kick the mud at granny! Lots of parents manage well with the first child, who is often a people pleaser, and then they get the second child who isn't in the least interested in pleasing people and quiet words that mummy doesn't like mud being kicked at her may well not get anywhere!

[exoticfruits]

It explains it well Sockreturningpixie-but would you really want a simple trip to a park if you have to use all that diplomacy? I would rather stay at home!

[SouthernComforts]

Sock- how would you forward plan for 2+ children? Child one decides they no longer want to wear trousers. Child two decides they hate t-shirts. Do you carry round an entire alternative wardrobe for each child, on the off-chance they take a dislike to something they are wearing?

[exoticfruits]

And why is mother the one who always puts herself out? At what age do you start thinking that adults are not just personal servants?

[CheerfulYank]

First things first.

No, the Pope is not God in human form. I think he's a representative. (I'm not Catholic.) Fwiw I think it's good for someone who feels they're no longer up to the job to step down, so fair play to him.

OP I don't do UP but I think your best option would have been to leave her in the car. She still gets a choice that way, and if she wants to pout in the car like I might've at that age so be it. Or you could've made her scrub the trainers herself, or pay for new ones with her pocket money.

If my son forgot his coat (unsure why it'd be his Dad's fault unless DS is a toddler) I probably wouldn't make him wear the hated other coat but I would let him be cold until he got the previous coat back.