Parenting education and 'Parenting certificate'?

[JC777]

There seems to be growing talk about a 'parenting education course, and parenting certificate' of some form;

• to help ensure children have loving care, and good parenting, and so to
• reduce child abuse
• reduce the risk of mental ill-health later in the children
• give parents more confidence in what they are doing, so they can enjoy being a parent more.

Every mother I have spoken to says something like "when I left hospital the first time, I felt terrified; no-one had given me any education on what to do". One said to me recently, ref the idea of a parenting education course for mothers-to-be; "don't you think every mother in the UK has thought that, when they were just having their first baby?"

People wanting to adopt a child have to pass all sorts of appraisals; why not people who want to become a parent naturally also?... Isn't it amazing there is nothing already for parenting?... We have driving tests...

The certificate could be particularly valuable to the most at risk children in our society, to improve their chances. Passing it could be linked to benefits, so there was some sort of financial incentive to pass it?

What about the class question? What about different cultures?

As a Swede I had different ideas as to ideal parenting compared to my friends and the health visitors. I consider myself well educated and well read on child development issues and my parenting has certainly never been in conflict with the law of this country. But it has at times clashed with cultural preconceptions of the health visitors.

Should I have been given contraceptive injections until I promised to get rid of all my foreign ideas and parent entirely according to the latest British fad? Or should we just have done what we did: shrugged and agreed to differ?

I know compulsory contraception until passing an 'able parent' test sounds fascist, and uncomfortable.

But it so easy to be goo-ey and weak at the front end and incur terrible suffering through doing so.
It would be so easy to not dob on your brother-in-law who is committing child abuse because it might hurt his feelings; ask that child in 20 years time!
It would have been so easy not to impose drink driving laws because it 'prevented human pleasure' - ask the hit and run victim now in a wheelchair, and the mother of the child who was run over and killed on the pavement...

My gran thought the world was fascist by insisting she wore a seat belt in the car; personal liberty infringement etc...

Appraising potential adoptive parents was thought of as fascist, but now seen as normal.

Things change.

And if we could see into the heads of mental illness sufferers; those who will suicide today for instance (80%+ of suicides have a mental illness component), and weigh that suffering against the 'personal rights infringement'?

The human right cost of forcing a lady to have a baby when she's ready and able - say at 22 rather than at 14 - could be worth it. I suspect in fact that girl would also likely say, later, 'thank you society for forcing me to wait to have a baby - it was just way, way better for everyone - just like you forced me to wait to have sex, to drive, to marry....'

I totally accept the current side-effect worries of compulsory contraception; I'm assuming in time technology will overcome them.

I think social norms do change, and it can be immensely valuable when they do.

An adoptive child is a far greater challenge to parent than most biological children. A biological family starts off with one newborn and the challenge gradually increases as the children grow up and more children are added to the family.

Adoptive children often have their own issues due to being removed from an abusive background and parents are thrown in the deep end by being given a two year old to look after rather than a helpless newborn. The reason that adoptive parents are given support and training courses is that NO ONE wants the adoption to fail.

"1. setting over-high expectations for their children, in behaviour, academic achievement, etc..

1. not treating their children equally from day to day i.e. equal time and attention. Children are very sensitive to this.

1. not trying to help a child who they chemically/biologically have attached and bonded to less than the others (this does happen); i.e. helping that child have other strong caring adult relationships (e.g. with an aunt and/or grandma) and to build interests and a life outside the home. "

There are situations where invariably one child gets more time and attention than their siblings. Ie. a newborn baby or a child with major special needs or a child dying from cancer.

Most parents who are guilty of what you have listed are obvilous to what they are doing. Expectations is cultural and varies from one family to another. Frankly I would rather that the govement stamps out child abuse rather than preventing parents make their offspring do their music practice, reading, kumon and attend church. (Our family gets on well with the pushy Indian parents and we share tips!)

Some people think that my expectations for my children are too high. However my children meet my expectations and often exceed them. In my view low expectations of children is a bigger issue.

Nos 2 and 3 only happen in families with one than one child. Are you going to insist on a parenting class every time a family has a child. Are you going to insist on complusory contraception so that families do not have a stupidly small age gap. What are you going to do if your first time mum finds she is expecting twins? Are you going to force her to have an abortion?

You do realise that many contraceptives are incompatible with other drugs and some are incompatible with breastfeeding.

OP: what are you going on about? Parenting classess already exist. E.g: triple P which is already promoted by antenatel nurses/health clinics etc. It is made available but not compulsory, which is as it should be. People are generally able tell if it's help they feel they need. Compulsory classess would be stigmatising and counter productive

We know its a bad idea for 14 year old to get pregnant, that's why in spite of the fact that its illegal for then to have sex there are routes for them to access free contraception.

You haven't addressed my point about side effects, I was not mentally ill, I had a medicine-induced hormone imbalance. Once this was realised I came off them and quickly returned to normal. That is not terribly unusual. And it was definitely that because I was offered them again 10 years later, got the same symptoms within 3 months.

And howhave you got from parenting classes being useful to uncertain first time parents, through them magically preventing abuse and onto compulsory drugging of all women under a certain age?

It also assume that there is such a thing as 'good parenting' or rather one good way to parent.
My experience has been quite the opposite. I don't parent my 2 dcs the same way because they are different and require different type of input (eg time out has been a disaster on dc2 and this is certainly not the right way to parent that child).

There is actually some countries that have some sort of 'parenting classes' attached to benefits. In France, you will only get benefit if you have a certain number of appointments with the gynae/midwife during pg and then if the child is seen at specific times by a paed (could be HV here).
However, 2 things to remember. One the infos given to parent is more about health issues than 'parenting' as such, even though it is obviously a good way to check if a child isn't treated badly. And two, as far as I know, it hasn't made french parents less likely to hurt their dcs.

On the other side, I have been going to see my GP & HV for PND and then AND and received no help at all. Which meant that I was a nightmare of a mum to dc1 for nearly 2 years. Which also created some clear attachment issues with dc1.
Giving me 'parenting classes' before or during that time wouldn't have helped tbh. What would have helped is support for my own health.

You view of the reasons why parents aren't good parents are too simplistic. They can't be solved by a short parenting class before 'being allowed' to have a child. And that's wo talking about unplanned pg abyway...

Is great idea but would cost a fortune. He midwives could identify those who na. Need extra help could be limited to them but would still be expensive, how would it be paid for?

I would be very happy To do such a course

Yes but there are more than one way of giving birth but ante natal lessons still take place.

Ante natal classes.... are just a repeat of what people here culturally think is the 'right way' to give birth.
I have done NCT classes, NHS classes in my time and they would never have stand the test in other countries (let's say the US or France which are very medicalised or |Germany where they are happy to be very open to 'natural birth' and complementary therapies).

This is the same for parenting except that, to top it all up, the reasons why you parent in a certain way have a lot to do with what other people are doing around you, what sort of support you are receiving as a new parents and VERY importantly with the way you have been raised yourself.
How any of these points can be solved in a few hours of a group sessions....

I think that parenting/ ante natal classes have to be the right style of class for the family.

It sounds awful, but I think you need to consider a mother's education level when organising a parenting course. Graduates can learn at a faster pace than those who have learning difficulties. Possibly it would help having mothers of a similar age and social class together to help with friendships and mutal support. I would like a blend of online learning and support groups. In fact our children's centre already provides support groups so the expense would not be that much more.

There is no way that anyone should have complusory parenting classes unless social services, the health visitor or the police think its necessary. Even then it should only be in the most extreme circumstances where having the child taken into care is on the cards. Infact such services already exist for child protection families.

I went on a course for improving women's health which was run by the mind network. Other familes may have different issues and need different support.

MrsHoarder

Ref. side effects: as I said before I totally accept the point. I am very much for avoiding meds where possible (esp. in mental health, although there may be crises points where needed, and some sufferers do need long-term e.g. lithium for bipolar). I am just hoping that non-side-effect meds or methods might become available soon for contraception. The alternative to compulsory contraception could be compulsory adoption.

Ref. coming from parenting classes being useful to preventing abuse: I'm just trying to reduce future suffering, and without doubt a lot of suffering results from people having children who they then do not parent well. In my view it is probably wrong to create someone who will likely suffer huge pain, especially when if you worked hard and made improvements to your capability that potential child would have a much better chance. But I quite accept we need more research evidence. Low specificity creates huge issues (i.e. some people who have terrible starts in life are quite fine later in life). It's a matter of balance; if some clearly high-risk people have to have children a few years later when they've developed themselves and passed a test, in my mind that's a price worth paying for saving lifetimes of agony.

I recently talked to someone who short-term fosters, often girls age 14-16 who are pregnant. They say that very, very rarely does the girl keep the child; she is just not able/together/mature enough to do it. So the child goes into the system; hopefully adopted soon and well, but often not, and the mother later tries to retake the child, court battles,...

EscapeInTheCity
very interesting what you say about "There is actually some countries that have some sort of 'parenting classes' attached to benefits. In France, you will only get benefit if you have a certain number of appointments with the gynae/midwife during pg and then if the child is seen at specific times by a paed (could be HV here)."
I think it is quite reasonable for society to demand some behaviour levels of its citizens in the area of parenting, just as it does in gunlaw, driving, crime...

The 'cultura'l approach, of building aspirations and education, is a lovely idea, and seems to work elsewhere; I understand that in Norway teen pregnancy is almost unheard of because it is considered such a weird way to live/throws away options so early.
However this does not seem to work in some sections of UK society.

This is starting to sound like a weird distopian future. What problem are you trying to solve op? Once we've worked that out we can discuss solutions. Real solutions, not ones with imaginary future tech like side effect free, long term, perfectly reversible contraception.

Incidently, are you a man?

I think the solutions that JC777 is suggesting are worse than the problem. (ie. feckless parents) It is like bit back to the future 19 century style or 1984.

How much of a problem is shitty parenting? None of us are perfect parents. Prehaps the simplest would be sterilise everyone so that the human race dies out.

I'm really really scared that a real person could think like the OP. ((backs away slowly))

Ok! thanks for the inputs. Just trying to think and discuss on how we can reduce the human suffering we see around us, and will keep happening... 2 suicides near me in recent months, both mental health issues... mental ill-health around us... thanks again

"The 'cultura'l approach, of building aspirations and education, is a lovely idea, and seems to work elsewhere; I understand that in Norway teen pregnancy is almost unheard of because it is considered such a weird way to live/throws away options so early.
However this does not seem to work in some sections of UK society. "

This was the case when I grew up as a teenager in Sweden. It still seems to be the state with many of the Swedish teens I meet today. It's got nothing to do with parenting classes or controlling teen's fertility. It is based on having a society without large differences in wealth and aspirations, where there are no groups who seem doomed to a life of low achievement. And where there are no jobs so badly paid that you can't live on them.

Swedish teens ime don't expect to become mega wealthy in the children-at-Eton/ocean-going-yacht/servants type of way, because hardly anybody lives that way. But they don't expect to have a boring life stuck in relentless poverty either. There isn't the desperate fear of falling behind.

If we want our British teens to think like that, we need a society where everybody can look forward to a modest degree of comfort. That's a very different society from the one we're moving towards.

JC777 but you've missed the bit where I said the checks/classes aren't making a great deal of difference though!

I suspect that in time Governments will be able to impose restrictions on conception on the grounds of class. They are already to some extent dictating family size to the poor and to a lesser extent those on more than 42,000 pa.

In the states you can be made to vaccinate your children. That is legally imposed medication, whilst poor sections in society are unable to access contraception because of the cost of private health care.

I think any moves to dictate who can breed with whom and when, how they raise their children and where is a slippery slope into a police state that will simply contain and control people.

I think you are quite Nuts OP !

Interesting discussion.

The idea of mothers not receiving any child-related benefits until they have passed a parenting certificate is similar to the ?conditional cash transfer? benefits systems common in Latin America and Africa. Payment in these is conditional on the receivers' actions, such as enrolling children into schools, and gong to health check-ups and vaccinations (siteresources.worldbank.org/INTCCT/Resources/5757608-1234228266004/PRR-CCT_web_noembargo.pdf). Seems very logical to me.

In the UK, in 2011 the CentreForum think tank proposed an additional child benefit dependent on parenting activities. www.centreforum.org/assets/pubs/parenting-matters.pdf

I don't know why such systems are seen as perfectly logical and acceptable in many countries, but seemingly unacceptable in the UK?

McLurkin - do you really feel, despite all sorts of likely weaknesses and problems, that a parenting certificate would achieve no good?

It could be

• a few education sessions, with a few key points agreed by experts in the field; e.g. the importance and coaching of (a) attachment, perhaps using VIG (video interaction guidance), (b) abuse prevention, and (c) equal treatment of siblings,
• examined by a verbal interview.

Sure these messages are 'obvious' to people on Mumsnet, but not to all.

The programme would improve over time, as experience was gained. Sure it might be poor at first, but over the years would improve. Simple messages would sink in.

Sounds like eugenics to me.