why do some parents not allow toy guns?

[baskingseals]

dd was playing with her cousins, who had a friend round. they were playing an elaborate army game with nerf guns. friend particularly enthusiastic, dd said he got on her nerves because he kept on shooting her. mum comes to collect friend and tells my sister that she doesn't allow guns at home - not judging my sister, just stating a fact.

do some parents think that by not allowing toy guns they are minimizing agression?
does it work ie if you don't allow toy guns are your children less aggressive?

[SallyAtTheArk]

Thanks for the feedback 'thisisyesterday'.

My Child's first gun type weapon was a birthday gift at 5 years old (a buzz light year laser). Up until then we had managed to keep him 'cocooned in an idealistic' world where he didn't see violence, know about guns or come to mention it any of the other horrors of this world. However, his is 10 now and knows a lot more through school, books, TV and the internet. His favourite topics at school to date have been the Aztecs, Ancient Eygypt and World War 2 - all gruesome stuff!!

I don't think it is a case of 'introducing guns' that is being recommended, more a case of 'not discouraging toy guns' if thats where that child's interests lie (how they come about the knowledge of guns is another argument altogether and I agree with you on that point).

I think however, it is a developmental stage: not guns necessarily - but imaginative role play that children need to do and IMO I am not sure we should decide what they can or cannot do with their imagination.

Also, I would rather have my child role modelling a soilder or a policeman than Rooney and Giggs (my youngest's hero's!!).

[addressbook]

very sensible post SallyAtTheArk

[clemetteattlee]

We dont have toy guns because we don't have toy flick knives or toy knuckle dusters. DS still enjoys games about fighting baddies and he does have two light sabres (he is a 3 year old Star Wars obsessive) but I will not allow REAL killi machines to be trivialised. I don't expect him to understand the distinction now, but it is improtant to me that he will grow up realising there is nothing fun about violent death.

[SallyAtTheArk]

Myself, I can't se the distinction between a toy gun - for example 'a nerf gun' which are the in thing, and a light saber. Well actually a light saber does actually kill people in star wars whereas the nerf gun is more for target practice!!

This said, I think you have touched upon a very valid point 'clemetteattlee' with the link to flick knives and knuckle dusters as some toy guns on the market are very realistic, and others like the BB guns are dangerous! I think the 'type' of gun children play with is significant. As we are all parents who are interested in our child's best interest (who are on mumsnet) I think it is fair to say those included on this thread who allow their children to play with toy guns would not be handing over 'semi-automaics' and 'sawn of shotguns'!!

As for killing machines: well yes! But only in the wrong hands. As is a car, a microwave or a Dr's Kit!!! And no, you are right, there is nothing fun about violent death - however it can happen in so many ways, its a part of life and our little ones are learning about all aspects of life through play and having fun! Even the nasty things in life!

[thisisyesterday]

of course imaginative play is important

the difference between dolls and guns is that most small children don't act out getting pregnant and giving birth and even if they DID, that is a natural, nice, pleasant thing! no-one gets killed or maimed by having a baby

a gun is a violent weapon used to kill people. the games children play with guns involve hurting others, and it trivialises the fact that this is really a very unpleasant thing.

children use dolls to learn nurturing skills, to care for one another and to learn skills that they very likely WILL need during their life.

there is no inherent NEED to know how to use a gun or kill people.

comparing the 2 is ridiculous

[SallyAtTheArk]

Thank you addressbook!!!

[thisisyesterday]

i disagree that they need to learn about the nasty side of life, esp when they are young

do your kids play at snorting cocaine? sleeping with prostitutes? suicide bombing?

or do they only play the "nasty things in life" that you are comfortable with? the ones that have been normalised by allowing small children to play with them?

[thisisyesterday]

and again i don't think you can compare a gun with a dr kit, or a microwave

yes, those things could kill..... accidentally. they are not designed for killing. a gun is.
its sole purpose is for killing and hurting.

[SallyAtTheArk]

But 'thisisyesterday' some boys just love to play with toy guns, like some like trains and wheels, others like sport etc. It's their schema!

IMO...it is ok as long as it is monitored sensibly with guidelines and boundaries. Surely it is doing a child more harm to tell them they are 'wrong' and their imagination 'is not allowed because it is bad'!

It is imaginative play, no 'actual' violence involved. Yes, someone usually gets shot and 'is dead' but that happens when the girls in my practice wave their magic wands at the 'baddies' during role play. The gun play is not just focussed on 'killing' either. It is also about 'aiming', 'hiding', 'team work', ' protecting', 'good and bad' and generally rolling around to avoid being targets.

Finally, I think there is an inherent need to know about guns, death and killing people. Unfortunatly this is a sad fact of life and our children will learn all about it as they grow up. There isn't an inherent need to know how 'to give birth' or 'how to cook dinner' at three years old - however, these are also facts of life and we are teaching our children through play what lies in the world ahead of them; Good and Bad!

[mummyosaurus]

DS will make a gun out of anything, carrot stick, piece of celery, stick.

I don't allow any replica gun toys as they take the imagination out of the game, but I don't ban using sticks as guns. It just seems to be inbuilt into DS (4), even though I am very strict about TV he watches and so on. It seemed to get worse once he started nursery school.

I can't help wondering how the kids who's parents have banned fighting games behave out of parents sight. Are they the most enthusiastic participants in an unsupervised fighting game?

[SallyAtTheArk]

lol.

I actually do talk to my children about drugs and suicide bombings (well my ten year old), but No, not got round to prostitution yet, maybe next year when he does sex education.

Maybe this is the argument? How much we communicate the truth to our children. I try to answer 'honestly' any questions my children have and they know about drugs and terrorists!! (but, quite hypocritically we have hung on to 'father christmas' so far...I think!!)

I see your point about microwaves and Dr's kits and guns are designed for killing - but also for protecting, and again, only dangerous in the wrong hands. What about shooting clubs (sport) and farmers who sensibly use guns. We could go really deep and start about war and the for and againsts etc...

I would be interested to know if you have got girls or boys thisisyesterday???????

[thisisyesterday]

i think we'll have to agree to disagree sally!!!

i don't think guns are necessary in any hands.

and ftr i have 3 boys.

[SallyAtTheArk]

I think you are right mummyosaurus, it is inbuilt in some children and I think this is where the divide lies - those with children who thrive from such role play and those who can take it or leave it!!

[thisisyesterday]

my point about drugs and suicide bombings was whether you would be happy letting your children act those things out?

you're ok with them acting some nasty bits of life out (like shooting people to death) but presumably not with them pretending to shag a prostitute or take drugs?

this is what I don't understand. children do not NEED to act thigns out just because they are interested in them. they don't NEED to pretend to kill people. we only allow it because it has become normalised in our society

[SallyAtTheArk]

OK thisisyesterday, thank you for the debate.

Interesting stuff for my next research assignment.

Believe it or not, I still remain on the fence in terms of allowing such play in my pre school!!! lol

[SallyAtTheArk]

Final point: its not about encouraging them to 'act it out' its about not 'denying them' the opportunity to play imaginatively about something which interests them.

I would be very concerned if they acted out drugs and sex scenarios as they do not see such content in the things they are exposed to - that would be a child protection matter.

Guns are shown so much and in everything, rightly or wrongly, and some boys just love that kind of play! (oh, and some girls too)

[snailoon]

We are very pacifist in our beliefs-- vegetarian and very against any kind of violence.
I don't enjoy seeing kids posturing with guns.
Our kids were not particularly interested in toy guns, but they were not prohibited. In fact I bought two beautiful wooden replica guns for them, which had been props in a BBC drama, and our friend has made them various toy weapons out of cardboard or wood
I can honestly say that playing with guns and other weapons has probably been the most good natured fun that my 2 boys have had together. It involves hiding in the woods, making dens, pretending to be a gangster, etc, and has never led to any meanness or squabbling. The same can not be said for games of scrabble or chess, cooking together, or chatting around the dinner table, all of which are supposedly peaceful activities.
I have also noticed that some kids whose parents prohibit guns are particularly fascinated by them.

[mummyosaurus]

thisisyesterday. No sigh of DS (4) wanting to act out suicide bombing or drug taking. But the gun/fighting game thing is just inbuilt.

Just how do people stop fighting / gun games? Do you stand over them and stop them playing power rangers or what ever (BTW DS has NEVER watched Power rangers, I can only guess he's been introduced to the "game" at nursery school).

Killing has always been normalised to some extent, we've always killed animals to eat. There is this theory that some kids have this hunter gatherer instinct and that's where the gun games come from (and why there is no instinct to try drug taking games?).

Personally I will just wait for DS to grow out of it, I'm confident he will without turning out a psychopath. Time will tell.

[SamsGoldilocks]

I once did some research at my local museum asking people what three objects they remembered seeing in a particular gallery.

I was really saddened by the mother of a son who said ' you remember the swords, don't you Jimmy?'.

I think for me it represented how gendered our world is and how much we as parents imbue our sensibilities into our children

Obviously i have no idea if 'Jimmy' did remember the swords more than the masks or what kind of things interested him, but i do beleiev we act as strong influences to our childrens behaviour.

Having said that i have never 'shot' a stick or a toy gun at either of my sons and they are forever chanting 'kill kill' at things.

[thisisyesterday]

how can it be "inbuilt"??? they have to LEARN it somewhere. if they did not learn it anywhere they would not want to play it.
the desire to run around like loons, to be aggressive, to fight may be inbuilt. but the desire to kill people with guns most certainly is not.

babies aren't born knowing what guns are.

[nailak]

my dd 4y was playin with a water pistol she got in party bag, i asked her if she knew what guns were for, and she said no, i told her they were for killing people, then i went on you tube and showed her some music videos, lowkey, and michael hart.

It provoked some very interesting and thoughtful discussions between me and dd. she was not scared, but curious, and sympathetic.

[mummyosaurus]

thisisyesterday. I think it's instinct. I think it must be the hunter gather thing coming through.

I have an older DD (6) and DS (4) has been an eyeopener. He really has. I started out wanting him to never play with guns or act out violent games. I am super strict with tv. I just cannot see how I could prevent it.

[addressbook]

I don't think comparing the two is ridiculous thisisyesterday. Of course having a baby is a nice, nurturing act! But my point is, most of us ideally wouldn't want our 12 year old daughter falling pregnant. However we would never feel that by allowing play with dolls will result in that. Just as a child playing imaginative gun/sword games isn't automatically going to posess a gun and shoot someone.

I am a good enough mum I feel. I have a lovely, caring wee boy. I have never openly encouraged guns, in fact we don't have any in the house. However he loves star wars - this portrays fighting with light sabers and laser type guns. He gets lego as presents, some of the figures have swords. He plays outside with older boys who probably refer to guns or swords now and then.

Am I going to ban all that and feel guilty? Definately not! I can have good discussions with my ds about the realities of real weapons. He knows no physical violence at all.

As I said before what about Barbie? Other toys that sexualise small girls or give them unrealistic ideals of beauty?

[thisisyesterday]

but the reason i dislike guns is not because i think my child will grow up and kill someone with one

have you read the whole thread?

and my god i am thankful i don't have a daughter, because trust me, there would be NO barbie in this house

[addressbook]

I have read most of the thread. Your point is that it normalises what is very tragic?

I do agree with this to a point. I know how awful the gun culture is. In America and now here.

On the other hand I don't see how I can stop it completely. Other than banning him playing with any boy who makes reference to it, or taking away any toy with reference to it eg his beloved Star Wars figures

No I won't do that. I have never bought a toy gun and I have talked to him about what it means. I show him how to interact with people respectfully and never violently. Any games he plays do not involve actual physical violence.

His end of year report made reference to how he was one of the quieter boys and was intially shy and lacking in confidence. However he has made some solid friendships and is a lot happier at pre-school. One boy he bonded with over a love of Star Wars and I am sure they have played light saber type games. I have met this boy and his mum, perfectly nice people.

So no I won't be extreme in my views and ban all such games. That I feel is not a healthy approach.