Do you think our society is over-sexualised?

[MrsMerryHenry]

I have just been reading the chapter on sex in Steve Biddulph's 'Raising Boys', and it got me wondering about this question.

I noticed the stark difference between the UK and a place I've visited in rural Uganda, where there is little to no advertising, let alone magazines, TV, etc etc. I also felt that the people I encountered there had a purity about them, which was incredibly beautiful. In the UK I have only ever seen this in young children - it felt very much like we have lost something, rather than that they are missing out on something we have.

When I came back to London from a two-week jaunt in Uganda I was overwhelmed by how heavily all things sexual are promoted here. It was like being hit in the face time and time again, and then of course I became desensitised to it. But reading Biddulph's book has raised the issue again. I would love to have a thoughtful conversation here about these questions (and more - please do add more questions!):

1. Is our society oversexualised?
   
2. How does it really, truly benefit us to promote sexuality (a) in the way that we do; (b) as heavily as we do?
   
3. How does it disbenefit (for want of a better word) us - referring to (a) and (b) as above?
   
4. Is there a better alternative?

[ABetaDad]

Ingore your posts that is.

[SenoraPostrophe]

ABetaDad - you said "Teenage boys like all men are programmed to naturally respond to visual signals" and that this, combined with teenage girls dressing/behaving "like Britney" worries you. I don't mean to be obtuse, but what is it that you believe men and boys are "programmed" to do? Yes, they may react to a short skirt. They may also react to a pretty face, but I would argue the only thing they would do naturally is get a stiffy, blush, or attempt to talk to the girl. "Programming" is done by parents, other significant adults and peers

Don't worry about it so much. teach them respect as you suggest and it shouldn't be a problem. But talk of natural programming to behave in an unsaintly manner is unhelpful to say the least.

[SenoraPostrophe]

But anyway - as others have said, I think it's important to make a distinction between sexuality, sexual objectification (as in much porn, prostitution and pole dancing) and hopeless ideals presented to us by the media. I don't mind the first, but I hate the others.

And it's not just a feminist / gender issue. How many rent-boy / client transactions are equal?

[scaryteacher]

ABD - it worries me as well with my teenage ds, and he is in the same tutor group as some of these girls from the Youth Club. Whilst I appreciate these girls are experimenting with their sexuality, I'd rather it wasn't potentially done at the expense of the teenage boys in the Youth Club. I would argue that a rush of blood into one part of the anatomy means an equal rush of common sense out of another. I also don't want any of the other boys or girls there for that matter to feel pressurised by this group to experiment sexually or to 'put out' if they don't want to. I've seen that happen with teens and had to deal with the after effects, and it wasn't pretty.

Both boys and girls have a responsibility here if we are going to be adult about it.

As to the objectification and exploitation of women with porn and prostitution, someone quoted that 1/10 men have used a prostitute. That means that 9/10 haven't. I wish that the govt would regulate and legalise prostitution as they do in the States so that the girls were protected and checked for STDs. I wonder how many men would go to a legalised brothel if the sordidness and risk of getting caught were to be removed? Whilst I also appreciate that for some women this is a way of earning a living, there are perhaps other avenues they could be following?

I think that women are complicit in this objectification and exploitation at times, choosing to buy into the stereotype of how they think women should look. I don't buy into this you must look a certain way to succeed; I'll get there on my brains, not my cup size thank you. Many women feel like me, and we aren't clamouring for breast enlargement as someone said earlier; we are comfortable with our sexuality and can decide to flaunt what we have or not as we choose. I'm a person, not a Barbie doll. I also prefer men who treat me seriously as a person; will listen to my opinions, and who make me laugh - that's why I married dh.

[MrsMerryHenry]

ABetaDad - to respond to some of your questions, I also worry about the same for DS (bless, he's only 2 but I like to be prepared ). I am really interested to understand boys' thoughts and feelings better, particularly as they enter the fraught teenaged years.

I think that a significant and crucial part of becoming an adult is learning to take responsibility for one's own actions. I am also aware of some teenaged girls dressing provocatively with the express intention of teasing other males - whether teachers, boys in their schools, or other males in their circle. IMO we are not really fully 'adult' until we're 25 (ageist, I know ) so I believe that some responsibility in these instances lies with the girls themselves, and some with the parents.

Like you I consider myself reponsible for enabling my children to enter life with a considerate and mature (and fun!) attitude towards sex and how one treats one's partner and others. This is why I believe the parents of such girls are partially responsible - if I were the mother of a girl doing this, I would accept a significant amount of responsibility.

On a separate note I am intrigued to see that some posters have assumed I'm asking how our society compares to the past. I do not give a monkeys whether we are now more or less sexualised than the Ancient Greeks, the Romans or the Victorians. What I care about is whether we are doing the best for our society, and especially, for our children, today.

I can't recall who mentioned rape in Uganda - but again this isn't 100% relevant to what I'm talking about (though obviously there's a connection if you take the argument far enough). I'm not asking about extremes of violent behaviour: these have complex causes related to wider familial and social issues rather than just how sex is portrayed in a society.

[SenoraPostrophe]

MrsMH - the comment about the high rate of rape in Uganda is highly relevant, because it is likely to be symptomatic of ideas there about sex and power (and probably also about attitudes to women). and of course because it shows that the innocence you mentioned isn't enjoyed by all.

also I don't really see how you can ask if society is too sexualised without accepting comparisons with other societies (whether historical or not). how can we judge our own society without comparing it to another? You did so yourself (in comparing it to Uganda) in your OP. I don't know about Uganda. I do know that Western society since about 1850 has been unusual in trying to suppress teen sexuality. Many, if not most other societies allow marriage, for example, at puberty. Again, I think media ideals are a problem, but I don't think we're too sexualised.

[MrsMerryHenry]

But dittany, some girls are aware of the power of their sexuality, and use this knowledge in their behaviour as well as the way they dress, as part of their experimentation with all things sexual. I have seen girls do it myself. I wasn't one of those girls at school as I was a late bloomer in that aspect. But I certainly recognised it among my peers, and I still recognise it in girls (and women) today.

I am most certainly not saying it justifies any unpleasant response from the men who are subjected to teasing - other people might say that but I've said nothing of the sort here.

Also don't confuse blame and responsibility. Blame is about accusation. I am talking about accepting responsibility for our own actions. We as intelligent beings have to learn that our actions have an impact, and we have to accept that whether or not we like what that implies.

IME straight boys generally don't tease in the same way...probably for myriad reasons, including the fact that our society gives them a different education on what is expected of them as sexual beings. I don't know whether gay boys (or gay girls) tease in this way.

Haven't read your article yet - I really should get on with some packing so I'll read it another day. However, a leading journo says that when newspapers pose a question in that way, the answer is always 'no'! So I'm sure you're right!

[scaryteacher]

'I think it's important for boys to be taught that the way a girl is dressed isn't a sexual provocation. That sounds like the "she's asking for it" argument.'

I have to disagree here; some teenage girls and younger deliberately dress provocatively; skimpy plunge and crop tops, push up bras, pelvic pelmets, thigh high stockings; high heels, eyeliner, lip gloss etc etc (that's the 12yos btw). A pair of jeans and a sweatshirt wouldn't have quite the same impact would it? They have to be aware that dressing like that is going to get a response and that seems to be what they are after, especially when they turn out on a club night looking like that and it is 5 below freezing.

The sexual provocation of a girl's dress will all depend on what that dress is; if their Mums spent a bit more time building up their confidence perhaps they wouldn't feel the need to validate themselves by wearing outfits like that.

[MrsMerryHenry]

What a horrible thing for someone to say about you dittany. That must have made you feel incredibly vulnerable.

I think you're being naive on this point, however, and perhaps that's coloured by your past experience. You may not have intended to tease, but some other girls and women do dress and behave provocatively, in order to tease. It's a game, and they often don't mean any genuine harm by it - they're experimenting with life. Gay men do it too - it's not restricted to women.

When I talk about the 'power' of one's sexuality, I am referring to one's ability to have an impact on someone else's sexual desire. That's what advertisers recognise when they say 'sex sells'.

And as I said before I am not someone who accuses girls and says they were asking for it. You and I are talking about very different things here.

IMO parents have a responsibility for teaching their children about all aspects of sexuality, and this includes teaching their children how to treat others considerately with regard to their sexuality. Both boys and girls need to know what, for their gender, are the common pitfalls - e.g. Steve Biddulph describes how some boys behave like 'creeps', making lewd comments to girls with big breasts. This is unacceptable sexual behaviour from boys, which has horrible emotional consequences for the girls concerned. AFAIK it's less likely to happen from girls towards boys.

Similarly, since girls mature earlier (emotionally as well as physically), and since for whatever reasons women are judged more by their physical attractiveness, their pitfall is more likely (than boys) be dressing and behaving to tease. Again, this is unacceptable - the consequences are perhaps typically less severe than my above 'creeps' example', but nonetheless it leaves boys overexcited and confused at a time in their lives when their hormones are sky-high and their emotional maturity is earth-low.

(again, don't make the wrongful assumption here that I'm saying girls are 'asking for "it"').

I will read the article you posted.

[MrsMerryHenry]

What a horrible situation in that article, dittany.

The last paragraph reads:

"Sheldon Thomas, a youth worker in Brixton, said: "We've got a generation that looks at sex as if it's nothing, and treats disrespecting women as if it's nothing. These guys are like 13, 14 and 15, and their actual attitudes towards young girls ? towards sex ? is mind-blowing. It's actually leaving you asking: where are their morals, where are their values?"

This is why, as the mother of a son, I am so concerned about what our society is doing to our children, and what I/ we can do about it.

[MrsMerryHenry]

As for the race issue, I dunno. I haven't researched it so can only give an uninformed answer. But the social psychologist in me asks what are the statistics on gang membership based on ethnic group? If, say, 10% of white boys are in gangs and 50% of black and multi-ethnic boys are, then it would render Soraiya's assertion about race utterly meaningless. I'll watch that doco online, though.

[MrsMerryHenry]

Dittany, either you're misunderstanding me or you're not willing to consider my opinion as I am stating it, rather than as you want to interpret it. I'm not sure which. I started out supporting your viewpoint but it's become apparent that your posts, as others have said previously on this thread, are very clearly pro-women and anti-men. I am sure there is a reason why you think this way, and I think it's extremely unfortunate. Until you allow yourself to become more open-minded on gender issues, I think there's no point in us continuing this discussion.

[ABetaDad]

Thank you everyone that posted an answer to my questions. I am glad I am not the only one thinking about the issue.

I strongly agree with scaryteacher:

"Both boys and girls have a responsibility here if we are going to be adult about it."

I would add that I think parents of teenage boys and teenage girls also need to take responsibility here as well.

Just to add a bit of balance, while there has been a lot of discussion about teenage girls being knowingly provocative to boys it is quite obvious that some teenage boys are knowingly manipulative of girls to pressure them to 'put out'. Girls struggling with self image, wanting to be accepted and popular are clearly very susceptible. In my view, it is totally unacceptable for boys to manipulate girls this way. Our DSs will be getting that message loud and clear. MrsMerryHenry your quote from Steve Biddulph about 'creeps' is sadly very true and even more sadly a minority of men do it too. It is utterly unacceptable. Our DSs will also be getting that message loud and clear as well.

My primary concern though is to protect and advise DSs about the issue that scaryteacher raised that both boy and girl teenagers often feel pressured into 'putting out' by the behaviour of other teenagers.

The reason me and DW started thinking about this issue at all and even with our still relatively young DSs was because of what another parent told us about a local mixed independent school (not our DSs) which is high in the league tables, great facilities, well subscribed etc. She told us that a teacher at the school had admitted to her that the teachers knew that sixth form teenage girls and boys at the school were routinely sneaking out of boarding houses at night and having sex on the school fields. Me and DW were shocked because it is clear that in that environment the potential for boys and girls to be pressured into going along with something they do not want is enormous.

I certainly know the pressure on teenage boys to 'be one of the gang' and being made to feel inadequate if they are not having sex with their girlfriend is enormous and is frankly a form of 'bullying'.

My only conclusion is that we need to give DSs (and DDs) a clear set of 'rules' they can refer to about what is acceptable behaviour and what is not and especially when they are feeling pressured by other teenagers. Not completely sure any of us have worked out all the 'rules' yet but some pretty good ideas here. Just to be clear, I do not think the rules are about telling teenage girls not to wear fashionable clothes and make up.

Thank you for your answers. Lots to think about.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Well my DS is only 4 so I have a few years yet of not having to worry about him mistreating women. And I shall spend those years drip-feeding him the information (when the subject comes up, in an age-appropriate way) that sex is good but he is not entitled to it with anyone, that it's only good sex if all the people involved are willing and enjoying it, and that women and girls are people too.

[scaryteacher]

I was quite relieved yesterday when ds came home from school and said that when he leaned forward yesterday at school to hear something someone was saying he could see right down the cleveage of one of the girls in question. I raised an eyebrow; then he said 'Mum it was horrible - it looked just like raw turkey'...and with that he went back to slaying orcs on a computer game.

I think the point here is that those playing with fire on either side have the potential to be burned. As parents we have to tell our dcs that the other sex are people first and foremost and have to be thought of as that. I have said to my ds that if he feels pressured ever about having sex it's wrong, and he shouldn't pressure anyone either. I've told him to wait until after he's 16, and if he doesn't feel ready then, don't do it.

I am not surprised at sixth formers having sex....I did at sixth form. I am surprised that they are able to sneak out though. Very slack of the house staff indeed. I don't think that a boarding school environment is more or less likely to pressure you to have sex; less I think, as house staff are normally very good at picking up on tensions in relationships and with their students. IME it is more prevalent at a comp precisely because the teachers are not aware of what is going on out of school and can't move to combat it.

Luckily ABD, our lads have interested and concerned parents who will help them pick their way through the minefield, and more importantly, Mums who are concerned for their sons, but can also put the female perspective.

Dittany, I think both genders have to take responsibility here, but I do think perhaps you should trust those of us who are concerned parents to bring our ds's up correctly and with the right attitude to women.

[hobbgoblin]

ABeta, thinking about your questions..

scary, before I comment, I need to know, did you think the raw turkey comment was good news?

[scaryteacher]

Dittany - this is what people mean about you being anti male. I have taught him him not to make unpleasant remarks to people's faces, which he didn't. He stated what he thought it looked like - he is hardly misogynist at 13 - he wouldn't dare to be given he lives with me. He is allowed to think things - we don't have thought police as yet - but he knows that it isn't appropriate to say what he thinks. How do you feel about the comment Sylvia Plath made in the Bell Jar, that male genitalia resembled turkey giblets, or is that acceptable because it is written by a woman?

The girls probably do go home and make insulting remarks to their mums about my ds - it doesn't worry me.If someone said my breasts looked like raw turkey, so what? Raw turkey is smooth, pale and gleaming.

I was just relieved that my ds has no interest in a girls body, and sees the girls in his class as people rather than as sex objects, when he thinks about them at all (not because he's misogynist, but because Warhammer, the PS3 and scouts are more interesting to him at present).

'what is a problem is the pressure that is put on girls to be prematurely sexualized in our culture and then the blame they face for submitting to this pressure.' The solution I might suggest is in the hands of their parents, by not buying literally into that culture. Don't let your dd wear make up/short skirts/plunge tops; there are alternatives readily available. The prevailing fashion for boys seems to be wearing shorts and trousers with their arses hanging out. I do not buy clothes like that for my ds. The parents are culpable for giving into the pressure.

Men aren't the enemy Dittany and the general tone of your posts seems to imply that they are. It's really sad when you say a 13 yo is misogynistic because he gave me a literal description of what he thought something looked like. I was really saddened to read what happened to you at school, and I hope that you will realise that there are a lot of really good concerned men out there who do treat women with respect.

[monkeytrousers]

The raw turkey comment was not misogynist. It was derogatory. There is a big difference. Misogyny is a hatred of women - all womenkind. Comments like, 'oh, she has a fat arse' or 'has a cleavage like a raw turkey are specific and descriptive. You can say it's offensive to the person it was directed at, but not that it was mysogynous.

This is the same problem that happened on the religious thread, people mistaking offense for racism.

I don't think it does anything for the fight against either misogyny or racism to use extreme terms like that in plainly innapropriate situations.

[hobbgoblin]

Not sure what to think. I'm guessing he didn't mean it in a positive way, but maybe it wasn't negative either.

In any case, where we disagree scaryteacher, I think, is that you seem to be in favour to a certain extent of repression of one's sexuality and the fact that your son did not apparently attach any sexual response or feeling to his observation you see as a Good Thing. At age 13 (though not at that stage with mine yet so cannot be sure) I would imagine there is an awareness of breasts being sexual as well as functional and that in a 13 year old they would elicit some sort of sexual response. Is it wise to dismiss and discourage that?