More things to do with surveys and research, in particular the Joseph Rowntree Trust!

[Jbr]

The Joseph Rowntree Trust have decided that women are responsible for men committing crime and not finding jobs! How is this, well women getting jobs has made men feel "displaced" in society ie they are no longer seen as providers and women are "taking" all the jobs. It also says that "men's work" (their words, certainly not mine) no longer exists, so men are having to do "women's jobs" eg supermarket, call centre instead of ship building and mining, so men are feeling depressed and suicidal.

For starters, there are plenty of jobs, it just depends what kind of job you want. Secondly, even being out of work is no reason to commit crime. I have been out of work numerous times both before and after having my little boy and I don't mug people or rob banks!

Thirdly, 35% of women do not have jobs compared with 10% of men, so there are more women out of work than men. But of course, it doesn't matter if a woman doesn't have a job does it, because women should be happy sitting at home all day!

I thought if someone committed a crime it was their own fault and they were just selfish scumbags, but I should have realised everything wrong with society is the fault of working women! I sometimes think the Joseph Rowntree Trust was invented purely to keep women out of work. Oh but we wouldn't be out of work, we would be "housewives" wouldn't we?

This "research" and surveys like it had better be funded out of private money by sexists with nothing better to do! It had better not be coming out of my taxes! Everyone has a right to an education and a job!

Star - you totally misread me I'm afraid. I'm well aware how hard it is for women to make it in business (I'm married to someone who has found it hard) and I've no doubt that discrimination is widespread. Like you say, Ruth Lee is possibly the most anti-family friendly public figure around. I did not say that womens move into the workplace was easy, I merely pointed out that it has been hard for some men. That takes nothing away from what women have experienced. It is only "blame" if you choose to look at it that way... as part of a gender conflict. I don't see it that way - I see it as part of the normal difficulties one could expect from any great movement of social change. If you were to expect men to be unaffected, you are being unrealistic, and if you are merely going to say they are wrong and should change their attitudes you are being uncompassionate. It is unreasonable to say that men shouldn't feel threatened - it is understandable when society has for generations said that our primary role int he family is being a breadwinner. You should take a peek at a discussion about men in childcare to see what happens when men want to get involved in a traditionally female occupation - some women feel tremendously threatened by it. Not all, but some.

There are other ways of dealing with this - look at our sons, for example - we should bring them up with a much wider vision of what it means to be a man - it's not just about breadinning and being tough. That is the kind of action that is going to help men, not simply dismissing them and saying they're wrong and should change.

Jbr - I agree with your sentiments - we are struggling with social attitudes and institutions that really havn't caught up with the way family life is these days.

The problems for people who want to have equal access for men and women into the workplace and family life are different: For women, we are battling against ideas that say women's natural place is looking after children, and still sees working mothers as an anomoly. For men, it is the other way around - we are battling against attitudes that peg men simply as breadwinners and see involved, hands on fathering or male chidlcare as the anomoly (see how homedads are treated, for example).

Lol... Rhiannon - thnx for the chuckle. I figure by 5 to eight in the evening I'm allowed a little break... (I had a 10 minute break and then had to cook - shepherds pie mmmm)

Tom, I do appreciate your input on these pages, its too easy for us to veer off to the feminist right when we get chatting!

There were plenty of men out there who have and do support the women's movement over the last 100 years. If they could be sympathetic to our need for compassion, then shouldn't females be doing the same for the men. Women have driven change thru' and although we've a long way to go to achieve a society that is women/men/family friendly, surely we HAVE to take the men along with us, not fight them or ignore them.

If you ignore them you end up with disillusioned, disenfranchised men who are frankly a menace!LoL

Lil, thanks for the sound of sense. I fail to understand why people have got so defensive about this issue. When so many of the people who are writing have got sons themselves, surely they want more understanding of the issues that their children are likely to face as they get older. Yes, women have traditionally had a much harder job trying to be taken seriously in the workplace, and no, I don't think that is fair either, but that doesn't stop me wanting a future for my children to be equal. A lot of these messages seem to read as if women should now be 'on top' as we have been 'below' for so long. Any research that helps to redress the balance is useful. I suspect that if this research had said that women were having problems and it was all mens fault, it would have been applauded. Perhaps we should all try to stop apportioning blame and start trying to find solutions.
I'm now going to find a bunker to hide in!