Sally Clark cleared

[MandyD]

Just saw on the News that Sally Clark, the solicitor jailed for murder of her two sons, has been cleared at her second appeal and released from jail. The court said that vital evidence was definitely witheld at the original trial. I remember that the prosecution stated that the odds of cot death occuring twice in the same family were 73 million to one. Since then research has proved that it more likely around 400 to 1.

On the Victoria Climbie case, I know it is incredibly sensitive but while there has been a great deal of criticism of social services, I'm surprised that I haven't seen anything as to how the situation got as horrendous as it did without the parent's' picking up on the fact that something was wrong. Didn't they notice that the Great Aunt had some very bizarre ideas to say the least and didn't they communicate directly with their daughter at least by letter if not phone?. I just don't really understand how their daughter could be so badly abused over such an extended period of time without a family member intercepting.

Croppy, I guess the problem was that they saw Kouao as in loco parentis and were prepared to take her word for Victoria's wellbeing. They had no reason to distrust her - and the distance from their home must have made it much harder for them to pick up any negative vibes from their poor daughter. I don't think they had easy access to a phone or the money to call "on spec" to see how Victoria was getting on. The numerous carefully staged photographs of Victoria in London that you see in the press show how much trouble this wicked pair took to conceal what was going on from her family on the Ivory Coast.
I think another aunt based in the UK tried to contact Social Services on Victoria's behalf on two occasions but Kouao and Manning had moved by the time Brent sent anybody. Presumably they made sure this aunt did not have their new address.
It cannot be an easy job being a social worker in an inner-city area, but many professionals saw Victoria and the condition she was in, and I still feel they bear a heavy burden of responsibility for Victoria's fate.
Many of the papers revisited the enquiry recommendations of some of the other harrowing cases we've had in the UK in the past thirty years, and it was desperately sad to see all those little faces again and be reminded that nothing much has been achieved since Maria Colwell's death in 1973.

It is puzzling that the parents didn't pick pu from writing or talking to victoria that something was going on. They must have spoken or written to her during the months of her ordeal. Wasn't she about 7 years, so presumably able to express things well?

All I can imagine is that she had absolutely no privacy, and was totally disorientated and cowed by her aunt's cruel treatment. All phone calls were overheard, all letters were read by the aunt, she had no money to buy stamps or make a private phone call and she was threatened with who knows what if she dared to cry for help. As she was new to this country, and so young, she probably didn't know the postal system or the public phones here worked.

Re: Sally Clark - the boy does live with his dad, very happily by all accounts. I believe Sally may have suffered from PND after the birth of her 2nd. She was apparently a bit 'strange' with the baby, and I suspect this is why she fell under suspicion in the first place. Not sure whether she did it or not, but there was definately insufficient evidence one way or another. I think this shows more about the validity of so-call 'expert' witnesses than anything. Its about time we started getting some 'impartial' witnesses instead.

Thankyou Marina, I hadn't read anything of the collusion and the moving around and so on.

Re Victoria Climbie, the social workers who saw her could clearly see she was terrified of her aunt, but put it down to 'the normal strict discipline in African families'!!! So it's OK to terrify a child in your care, as long as you're black, then? What an appalling attitude. MInd you, I think the dr who diagnosed poor Victoria with scabies when she was clearly being hit and cut (and a childminder with no medical training could see this so clearly she took her to hospital) should be struck off IMO as she was clearly dangerously incompetent. I have fantasies about rescuing that poor tortured child.

Re Sally Clark, many people gave evidence a her trial - including their nanny, dr and HV - that she was a totally normal, loving mother who was clearly thrilled with her baby. Yet in court the prosecution used a letter she wrote to her parents (pretending to be from the baby) saying 'I look angelic all day but like to keep my mummy and daddy awake all night' as evidence that she couldn't cope and resented her baby. Also the fact that she was a bit glum about her figure and wanted to get into her old clothes! I think the problem is, very few mothers end up on juries as it is impossible to get childcare and do it. I've just had to get out of jury service myself as I am self employed so would have no money, and only have childcare 3days a week so couldn't possible appear on a jury for a week or even several.

And yes, her parents in the Ivory Coast were very, very poor so phone calls were out of the question. I still think it's incredibly odd to let your child be fostered by a virtual stranger, but it's common practise there, particularly if it means te child can be educated abroad.

I'm actually very surprised that so many people seem to still think she must be a murderer, presumably because she had two babies die. There are fifty cases a year where families lose a second baby. They can't all be murderers can they? Given that one of the children died of diagnosed lung disease at the height of the lung disease epidemic, and the other had meningitis, neither of the children had a mark on them when they went to hospital etc, it seems odd to presume they must have been murdered. The only motive put forward is that she didn't want children because they got in the way of her career. What utter rubbish!

As I said earlier anything involving babies and toddlers you have to prove your innocence rather than them proving your guilt.
This is particulary true in civil cases where no action is taken by the Police due to lack of evidence!

institutionalised sexism. i hope they pay her millions in compensation.

...not that it would actually compensate her for the experience...

I heard on PM yesterday that many home office pathologists don't believe in SIDS at all - they quoted a statistic that some have publically said that 30% are murders and even the ones who believe it is a real syndrome believe 8% are murders.

Thankfully, I can't even begin to imagine how awful having a child die of cot death is. But to have to go through a murder investigation, knowing your baby is going to be cut up by someone who is sure you murdered them.... well, only our treatment of rape victims comes close, really...

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

I agree with Bossykate, I think she really suffered from being a working mother when it came to court. A lot of evidence was about her wanting to wear her old clothes, and go back to work etc etc. I also think being middle class counted against her - the fact that she bought wine for a dinner party became a huge deal.

The Confidential Enquiry into Stillbirths and Deaths in Infancy (CESDI) estimated that at least 6% of sudden infant deaths were murders. Doesnt anyone think they should be investigated?
Of course it is upsetting for a baby to have a post mortem but I'm sure parents want to know the cause of death

Yes, investigated by all means. But you can hardly call a situation when a pathologist keeps evidence of menigitis a secret a proper investigation, can you? And I think to presume the death of a baby is murder and then to keep pursuing that line in the face of all the evidence isn't reasonable either.

She did admit to drinking heavily while pregnant, and had treatment in a psychiatric facility for drink and depression while pregnant

and?!

I don't even want to tell my doctor if I'm depressed - the system seems to make mistakes to often - what if my ds or dd slipped in the bath and then they checked my records which were subsequently all in the press if there was a court case (albeit unjustfied) it's not worth the risk unless I'm desperate (as well as paranoid!)
On the subject of drink I think it is far worse to smoke when pregannt but load pg mums seem to.

carriemac I don't think you can have looked into the case too deeply, because the fact she was middle class counted AGAINST her.

Apparently the incidence of cot death in middle class, non smoking households is about 1 in 8,500.

The incidence is a lot higher in smoking households and in poorer families.

The prosecution argued you could calculate the probability of TWO babies dying of cot death in a middle class non smoking household by multiplying 8,500 by 8,500. ( incidentally a completer misuse of statistics).

That's where the figure of one in 72 million came from.

Thus her social class counted against her, so yes, your statement " one law for the rich and one for the poor" is not without some truth in this case.

But she was depressed because her baby had died! No wonder she sometimes drank too much. Mums on this very site have admitted drinking too much, particularly if wrestling with depression. And there are a hell of a lot of mothers with depression here. It's not at all uncommon, particuarly after a bereavement. It may seem unlikely to have two babies die of different illnesses, but it's also unlikely sounding to have two children with CP, or autism, but I there are also examples of that here on mumsnet. I even remember that Peters of Peters & Lee (I know, dating myself something chronic) lost his eyes in two completely seperate accidents years apart. Didn't mean he poked his own eyes out though. Also Sally Clarke never claimed her babies died of cot death. She always said she didn't know how or why they died, which also counted against her in court. It seems that No1 died of a lung infection that had gone undiagnosed despite both her and her husband taking the baby to the dr, and the second of meningitis.

BTW she originally suspected that vaccination might be the cause of her first son's death - he'd had previous episodes of inability to breathe. I've just looked at the Aims site which describes one health authority reporting cases of newly vaccinated babies having episodes of apnoea, which I thought was interesting.

It makes me furious that Sally Clark gets investigated and sent to jail for the entirely innocent deaths of her child while my dh's ex neglects her children and brings them up with no morals and when dh calls social services about it, they say that there is nothing actionable in her behavior and he sounds like he is just bitter about their breakup!!!! (Carriemac, she is a council house mum with no money. )

I heard that about the apnoea as well aloha. I think it's a tradgedy that the 1 in 72 million statistic was roundly condemmed and shown to be a mistake almost as soon as she was convited- and yet it has taken her this long to be released.