Student fees

[gillymac]

Have just read on the BBC news site about certain universities wanting to charge students 'top up' fees over and above the current capped level of £1100 pa. This should, these universities believe, be paid either by students taking out bigger loans or by so-called better off parents saving for it. As a parent of three, all of whom will probably want to go onto higher education I'm pretty p**d off about this (although living in Scotland we currently don't have to pay student fees at Scottish universities up front) and just wondered if anyone else had any views on this.

Aloha, I saw your message on the other thread. I jumped to the conclusion your message here was directed at me because it came almost directly after a comment i'd made that I thought funding should come from those who'd benefited most. I guess I was wrong in my assumption, having seen yours and other replies and can only think I over-reacted because I'm feeling vulnerable here in Indonesia at the moment. My girls haven't been to school for nearly two weeks because it's closed due to 'a specific and credible' terrorist threat againt it. I hope you understand. Pax?

glad this thread is still continuing. fyi - university lecturers went on strike for a day last week. the objective was to get their london weighting raised to the same level as teachers' (that is, teachers' current level not the increased level that teachers' were striking for today - hope that makes sense). no media coverage whatsoever.

oh and btw he is dr bossykate NOT a mr - a qualification that took him a total of seven years to earn.

i have been thinking about this subject a lot and have a lot more to say, based on the replies here, some of which have shocked me quite a bit (together with those on the ff strike thread). am still composing my thoughts to make a coherent whole, so if you can bear it , you'll have to wait a while for further pearls of wisdom from me on this!

whatever the outcome, i am heartened by the fact that this subject is now being debated at least, instead of being brushed under the carpet as it has been for many years.

I'm glad you got my message, SueDonim. I was horrified you thought I'd made a personal attack as that never even crossed my mind. Glad to get it sorted.
From what I gather, university lecturers are horribly underpaid and undervalued too. I was actually surprised to find out how much this is the case. I just think there has to be a way of redressing this without dissuading potential students. I also feel it would be inequitable if, say, doctor and an entrepreneur) earned the same income, but the doctor got less because she paid more tax, yet arguable offered more to society. I can't think of any arguments that apply to universities that don't equally apply to sixth forms when it comes to tuition fees. Also, does anyone know if students get any help if parents point blank refuse to bankroll their adult offspring any more?

Goodness, is everyone in the UK on strike? Have you had an election and voted Mags back in? Is it worth me coming home at Xmas?? It sounds very bad, what on earth is going on there?

Aloha, no, a student doesn't get help if the parents won't pay up. I think they can take the parents to court but what a thing to have to do. The current situation has led to some students being more-or-less forced to take courses they're not interested in because of parental pressure.

Your Dr/entrepreur question. It could be argued that the entrepeneur has been paying taxes during the years the dr was training and had therefore paid his/her dues that way. It isn't really possible, is it, to quantify how much people contribute to society? An entrepeneur may not heal the sick but she/he probably gives employment to others instead, which is another kind of contribution.

bk, I saw some media coverage (but it could have been in the THES come to think of it ) and I saw the open-topped busload of AUT musicians speeding through the City early that morning. They looked a bit chilly...needless to say neither the AUT nor NATFHE are recognised where I work, but I gave the pickets at Moorgate a big wave.
Aloha, they get no help. At my place a couple of years ago we had a lad who turned out to have been living on potatoes, more or less, because his family disowned him. He was looking fairly peaky before we all realised what was going on.

Forgot to add, one of the options being considered to raise funds for uni's is to start charging fees for children who stay on at school after the age of 16, so you may be nearer the truth than you magined, Aloha. I'd be appalled as it would force youngsters into having to make life-affecting decisions they shouldn't need to make at 15/16yrs of age. Part of the reason Child Benefit was designed to go up to the age of 18 was to prevent parents pressuring children to leave school at 16 and start earning, which is what used to happen when I was that age.

Suedonim, that very nearly happened to my DH too - his Dad thought he should leave school and get a job, no debate about it in his mind.

I still think higher rates of tax should be even higher, and that all the money thus raised should be ploughed - 100% - into both HE and FE. Lecturers' salaries should be much higher and they should have proper contracts, not 3 months or whatever at a time, that is barbaric.

Pigeons are coming home to roost in huge flocks at the moment. For MPs to vote themselves big fat rises is so selfish and so short-sighted.

You're so right about the MP's pay rises. You can't say that high pay rises are a bad example if you are troughing them up yourself.

I agree that higher rate tax should fund education. I see your point about the entrepreneur & dr, SueDonim, and I'm not trying to knock any specific job/career but you could equally say that the former was earning and living comfortably while the dr was spending years struggling so they could qualify. I support equality of tax for income, so poorly paid graduates aren't paying more than well-off non-graduates.

Or that the entrepeneur was living in a garret while pouring all his money into his business, lol! Iswym about everyone paying the same tax but it seems that it's always the so-called middle-classes who end up paying. They are also the people who were told they would be looked after when they were old but now have to save for a pension (out of the money from which they also have to pay uni fees/living allowances!!) which will probably be worth peanuts, plus having been talked into taking out endowment policies they now find that there won't be enough money to cover the mortage. We'll have to sell our home when DH retires because of that. It sucks!

There must be loads of other ways in which money could be obtained. How about stopping people from evading tax, for one thing?? DS1 was at uni with a boy who received a full grant even though his dad took home over 100K a year but fiddled the books because he was self-employed. That's the sort of thing that makes me seethe, that we have to subsidise people like them who earn far more than we could ever hope to, and it's not an uncommon event. When everyone is taxed on an equal basis, then yes of course, I'm happy to contribute our share.

I know its changing the subject slightly but I think all politicians have made a complete hash of the country no matter what party. What qualifications has Tony Balir and Gordon Brown to run the country, other than ability to dodge questions and make speeches. Have they ever had a real job, have they ever had to run a company and make money......maybe they have, but I do think all Politicians should be able to prove they are competent in others areas of life and business before they take on any sort of ministerial roles in Government. (Same goes for the civil servants who run the country for them). For me Politics seems to be about too many big egos...Stephen Byers for example, and John Prescott what value does he add??

Also when we see figures quoted at us they always seem to say that the UK spends less than any other country in Europe per head on education, cancer drugs, public sector, railways, public transport...etc. Where does all the money go? If we spend so much less on these things with 40% tax/NI contributions/companies tax/VAT...what does the UK spend money on?

Let me guess Defence no doubt...what about those helicopters that they have no pilots to fly, how many Doctors/teachers would they have funded? I also spotted a small article tucked away in a newspaper how the Government gave away hundreds of tanks at the cost of millions to Jordon in the hope that UK/US could use there bases in event of an Iraq war.