National Anthem - anyone know the words???

[cherry]

This may be hard to believe for some of you, but I have no clue to the words of the National Anthem. I have been asked by dd's nursery teacher to help her learn the first verse by Friday, so if anyone can help me out here that'd be great!

Inherited status -inherently wrong - fine I'll go along with that. But what about all that other 'royalty' lurking around Britian nowadays? pop star/soap star/Big Brother royalty? all apparently voted in by the great British public with the media's helping hand. Surely not right in principle either.

If we, as a country, had no tradition of looking up to royals, I wonder if we would be quite so indiscrimate about whom we elevate to star status.

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In reply to XAusted, I am a bit of a socialist so I wouldn't agree with singers and footballers getting paid what they do anyway, no matter how talented they are. There is far too much of a poor/rich divide in this country and it sickens me to see someone like Victoria Beckham dressing her son up in designer clothes, herself covered from head to toe in diamonds and Gucci when all she has ever done was to sing badly and marry a footballer.

In answer to Bloss, our Queen is not entirely English, there is equal grounds for her to be Queen of Germany as well as our country. I feel that they are an embarrassment to our country, especially when her hubby insists on offending just about everyone she meets, and as ks has said, the Queen Mother herself was guilty of ignorance at best, racism at worst. They have no idea how their 'subjects' live and 'one' gets the impression they don't much care either. They have changed enormously in the past 50 years, but don't make the mistake of thinking that those changes were made gracefully, they have been done very reluctantly indeed, only bowing under enormous pressure from the public.

Bells - I am working on the Fen people. If you type Fen into google, you'll see what I mean. I am quite intrigued by the story myself, so would like to look it up again.

Bloss - so, problem solved then. The Royal family can move to Australia, then they'll be your resident monarchy, and we'll be the republic of Great Britain! Hooray!
I warn you though, they'll come with all their earls and dukes, etc, who'll all want big estates too. A lot of Australian farmers may have to give up their land, and become tenant farmers on these big estates, but I'm sure they wouldn't be so mean-spirited as to stand in the way of progress.
When can you have the royal family then??!

I know nothing about Australiann agriculture but I would imagine that like most similar countries it has a high number of large properties/estates many of which date back to the original English landing there.

...if the land system is so well prepared, it really sounds like Australia is ripe for a royal invasion!

I am not a particular monarchist but I do think the Prince of Wales is an exemplary landlord to his farmer tenants, Sml! He is actively encouraging sustainable and organic agriculture, enabling the production of excellent quality biscuits, bread, chocolates, sausages and bacon, and provides a lot of financial support to these initiatives. I believe the Duke of Westminster, despite having the misfortune to have been born an incredibly wealthy toff, is also a good urban and rural landlord.
Sooner either of the above than Nicholas van Hoogstraten, I think, even if the royal establishment could do with a general trimming. It's people like Prince and Princess Michael of Kent who make me cross - £100 pw for a 10-roomed flat in Kensington Palace, apparently, and they don't even open any fetes in exchange.

Marina,
admiration for the Prince of Wales? sorry, can't let that pass! perhaps you are unaware of the economic conditions in Cornwall, where the greater part of the Prince of Wales' land is situated? The Duchy accounts for some 76% of Cornwall, which is the only English county (I believe, apart from Rutland) which has no University. When the Labour government brought in the minimum wage at £3.60 an hour, 25% of all jobs in Cornwall were below the minimum wage. That was only about four years ago. As such a major player in the region, the Duchy could address these sort of issues - if it wanted to.

Croppy - I'm assuming of course that the royal family et al would need to annex the same % of Australia as they own of the UK, in order to hold on to their power base, which would of course be considerably larger. I assume you mean that farmers are likely to be tenants anyway? Maybe an Australian could enlighten us?

Can I ask (I am not British) why is Prince Michael fo Kent a prince... how does he fit into all of this ?
Thanks

Even the British are puzzled about that one, Pupuce...
Sml, I am quite prepared to stand corrected on the Duchy's policies local to Cornwall, I don't know that much about it. And of course I agree that big employers could do more to encourage the adoption of the minimum wage there.
But I do still think that in encouraging organic and sustainable farming he is setting a good example to other enormously wealthy landlords, such as the type that have turned parts of Lincolnshire into a featureless, hedgerowless, bleak arable desert. That does not mean I think his ideas about communicating with plants, architecture, etc, are worthy of consideration.
Cumbria currently has no university either, btw - also an economically struggling rural economy. I don't think anyone could put Rutland into that category!

I think, but am prepared to be corrected, that Prince Michael of Kent is a prince because his dad was Duke of Kent, due to being brother to King George VI (the queen's dad). I think the DofK was killed during WW2 and Prince Michael's brother is the present DofK. There - that's all clear as mud, isn't it??

Must admit, I can't get too exercised about the monarchy/republic debate, although I admire Princess Anne for putting her foot down and refusing titles for her children, so they are plain Mr and Miss/Ms.

There's such a lack of candidates for president, tbh. I can only think of Bob Geldof and he isn't even British! Who else would people like to see as president of the UK?

Oh come on Sml, Cornwall's problems as regards economic prosperity go well beyond the Duchy of Conwall's influence. Sure the land owned by the Duchy covers a large chunk of the county but a look at the % of people actually employed by the Duchy tell a very different story. The PoW IS a good employer.

And as for the university, well my old alma mater Plymouth amply covers itsd catchment area.

I do think Prince Charles is worthy of admiration; he has used his position and the resources available to him to the benefit of the environment, through Duchy initiatives, and to the benefit of disadvantaged youth, through the Prince's Trust. I was interested to read recently that the idea to set up the PT followed conversations he had with deprived and disaffected young people on his visit to Brixton following the 80's riots.
He is the only person I can think of who takes such a holistic view of life - without making a huge profit, unlike for example Anita Roddick.

Suedonim - it has to be Ken Livingston simply because he can be relied on to annoy ALL politicians!

Hi Gracie
the Cornish situation doesn't look so good when you add in that a large part of the remaining 24% is carved up between another 5 or so big estates. I cannot agree with you that Prince Charles bears no responsibility for the current state of Cornwall. As the major landowner, and I would think, the county's biggest private employer as well, the Duchy is in a unique position to influence the direction taken by the region. This is especially true of the university question. You can't say that Cornwall is adequately served by Plymouth - the county has just as much right to have its own university as Devon does.
Of course, a university of Cornwall could be a focus for the Cornish nationalism which simmers constantly just below the surface, and perhaps the official view is that that would be undesirable.

Marina,
I can't admire any of these toffs for being "good" landlords! Their ancestors took the land by force from its previous owners, killing many of them in the process. If they were granted land by the monarch of the day, it still came, originally, from the same dubious source. If you admit the legality of ownership of these huge estates, then you are also admitting that might is right. This sits uneasily with the prevailing view in England that using violence is wrong and should be punished. It looks suspiciously like one rule for them, and another rule for us.

Well, that's the heritage we have to live with, Sml. How many centuries do you want to go back through to ensure the land belongs to its original, peaceful owners? Hands up here who can be sure that they can trace their lineage back to pre-Roman or pre-Celtic times? I hope I have no murderous Norse blood coursing through my veins. I don't think the ruling classes have ever had a monopoly on violent disrespect for the person or land.
Of course by today's standards serfdom, clearances etc are barbaric and unacceptable. But to whom do you think the landlords should hand over the land? Could tenant farmers make a better go of agriculture in the 21st century if they owned their land outright? - That's a genuine question, by the way.
I am coming across as an enthusiastic supporter of the aristocracy, which is really not the case. But I think it is unfair to hold people responsible for the full weight of their heritage, especially when they make such delicious butterscotch biscuits.

Top 10 non- government employers in Cownwall as at March 31 2001 (can't believe I'm bothering with this!)
1
Devonport Management
4,200

2
Nortel Networks Optical Components
3,000

3
British Telecommunications
2,769

4
Imerys Minerals
2,603

5
Lloyds TSB Group
1,971

6
First Group
1,790

7
Pennon Group
1,717

8
Orange
1,655

9
Plymouth and SW Co-op Society
1,497

10
Invensys
1,440

Are you sure about that 74% figure for the Duchy? Seems way too high to me. If you look at a map you'll see that a number of Devon tertiary insitutions are located relatively close to where the majority of Cornish live.

Just had a look at the latest census for Cornwall. Less than 2% are employed in agriculture either as farmers or workers. Cornwall is 880,828 acres in size. Duchy of Cornwall owns 128,000 acres pread across 22 counties with almost half the land in Devon.

Cornwall's economy is of course completely dominated by tourism. Where are you getting yoru facts from sml?

Makes for good reading Croppy and Marina... go girls !!!!
Sorry SML...

Every time I tuck into my Duchy of Cornwall snags/bacon/biccies I think that Charles is the only Royal ever to have done anything directly for me and I salute him for it!.

Croppy,
Goodness, what a lot of evidence you have produced! I?m afraid though, it is based on a perfectly understandable fundamental misunderstanding here (which I?ve contributed to as well), between what is the Duchy of Cornwall:

?Further powerful evidence of Cornwall's national distinctiveness and legal position were cited in the notable Duchy of Cornwall v the Crown case of 1855, when it was confirmed by the Attorney General to the Duchy, Sir George Harrison, that Cornwall was, in law, a Palatine State , extra-territorial to the English Crown and whose quasi-sovereign is the Duke of Cornwall; that during the Kingdom, Earldom and Duchy, Cornwall had always been treated as distinct from England; and that its eastern boundary confirmed that set up in 931 AD, that is, the east bank of the Tamar river; all of which was accepted as the legal position by the Court.?

and, second extract,

"The creation of the Duchy of Cornwall in the fourteenth century may have been in some respects a mark of English overlordship, but it established a special and enduring relationship between Cornwall and the Crown. The use of the designation (Duchy) on all appropriate occasions would serve to recognise this special relationship and the territorial integrity of Cornwall". "The Royal Commission on the Constitution 1969-1973".

and what is the LAND belonging to the Duchy. I visited the Duchy website myself, and saw where the misunderstanding arises, where they quote the acreage owned by the Duchy estates over 22 counties as though that was the Duchy itself. I also went to a few Cornish nationalist websites, and they made the point very strongly that the present Duke of Cornwall seems very keen to distance himself from the actual Duchy, which they are obviously unhappy about. The quoting of land owned by the Duchy as comprising the whole Duchy would appear to be a case in point. This is an example of the Royal family re-writing history under our very noses! Cornwall is being downgraded from a Duchy to an English county by the back door, and the Cornish nationalists can provide you with plenty of evidence to support this. A paper by the Cornish Stannary parliament is here: www.cornish-stannary-parliament.abelgratis.com/page20.html

With regard to your list of major employers in Cornwall, the several including the top two are actually in Devon as far as I can make out. According to its website, DML employs some 4,000 people on the English side of the Tamar, and Nortel is at Paignton. I can't find any reference to either of them in Cornwall. Also, Invensys appears from its website, to have no operations west of the Tamar. Given this confusion, I?m wondering how many of the Lloyds bank and Coop jobs mentioned are actually in Cornwall, rather than in neighbouring Devon. But please don?t go and prove how many; I am aware I slipped up in not correcting ?the biggest employer? to ?one of the biggest employers?!!. Remember also that the Duchy?s tenant farmers and their employees won?t show up as direct employees, but they are still a part of it.

On the subject of universities, it is true that both Plymouth and marjons are near the Cornish boundary. But that?s akin to moving the University of Cardiff to Hereford and then asking the Welsh, ?What are you worried about? There?s a perfectly good English university just over the border?..?

Marina,
you are perfectly right, that is our heritage, and I think it?s one we should face up to and come to terms with. What annoys me is the constant official propaganda to try and make us think that the Royal family are cuddly and loveable! Prince Charles is ready enough to take on his inherited titles, wealth and other privileges, so why not hold him to the responsibilities of his heritage too?
I don?t think it?s particularly relevant to go into details about how land might be re-distributed; it?s one of those things that everybody would say was impossible til it actually happened.
Does the idea of life without the guiding influence of our ruling class actually scare you? There?s something a little bit Cagebirds about your posting?.
Butterscotch biscuits indeed! Think crushing of the Peasants? Revolt, girl! And I daresay George IV, the last king to approach Charles? PR problems with the public, would have been a dab hand at butterscotch biscuits if only he?d thought of it.

I made a mistake the heading on the employeres list should have been the largest employers in Devon and Cornwall together. The point being that if only 1,400 or so people are employed by the 10th largest in Devond AND Cornwall, the PoW clearly doesn't employ many people in either county.

I didn't realise you wanted the PoW to adopt a paternalistic / lord of the manor approach to the county. ALthough how he is supposed to address Cornwall's fundamental problems (being the demise of tin mining / china clay and increased popularity of foreign travel) is beyond me.

You originally said that the Duchy of Cornwall accounted for 74% of Cornwall hence my assumption you were referring to how much land it owned.

Also, out of interest why don't you hold the Normans responsible for nicking the land rather than the aristocracy?