I got deleted so I'm posting this again - more crappy research.

[Jbr]

I read this in a newspaper. It's got to be the worst thing a so-called "expert" has ever said.

'When a child's mother dies, that is a terrible tragedy. But we impose that tragedy on every child when we leave them to go to work.'
Kathy Gyngell, Full-Time Mothers Association.

This woman should be banned.

But Minx, why are you amazed? You only have to look at the figures on the percentage of women who return to work full time in the first year of their baby's life to see that it isn't at all unusual for a woman to decide to chuck in her job, at least temporarily. While stay at home Dads are on the increase, they are still a relatively small minority.

I think it's absurd to suggest that as a generalisation, women don't feel a stronger need/desire to be with their children than their male partners and what's wrong with that?. On a practical note, given that in central london, childcare costs range from around £8,000 to £25,000, for many women returning to work is simply uneconomical.

Crunchie, I too get very concerned at the apparent backlash from the childless to parents in the workplace. I personally think its important to intriduce flexibility for everyone, not just mothers.

It seems to me that in most cases, the only family member to suffer by having a mother working full time outside the home is often the mother herself!

Bells2 Absolutely, but where would we be without 'Mothers Guilt' You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

I couln't believe that I didn't feel too bad about returning to work this time, so instead of feeling guilty because I was going out to work, I felt guilty for not feeling guilty if you get my drift!! Daft huh

I've never worked in an office where anyone was expected to put in extra hours. Actually, if anything, the bosses especially in my last job, used to wonder why you hadn't got all your work finished if you were staying past 5.30.

it's diifcult to know whether you feel more biologically connected to you children than a father, or if there is any difference in the bond/ sense of responsibility, because your only experience is as a woman (for most of us). i can't work out how a man can stand not to kiss his kids goodnight (or whatever) if he doesn't live with them. i don't think i could do that, but i have never had to. my brother, who lived separately from his first son, had a hard time with it but says that you just get used to it. i suppose that mothers who live apart from their children do the same. so if mums were in dads situation (whatever that may be) would we feel just the same as they do now or is it down to biology etc. - i don't think we'll ever know the answer to this. this is just a way of thinking about it that sprang to mind and i can't really explain properly what i mean.

i note that we are not mentioning that petal saw red for a moment (not that i saw it before it was withdrawn). but in all seriousness how noble of you to apologise. sometimes i look at stuff i've posted and wonder if it was actually me who wrote that! i hope i've not offended anyone.

finally, on the subject of research about our childrens likely prospects, did anyone hear Sunday Format on radio 4 this week? one of the sketches just said something like '70% of children born to working mums are more likely'. i thought that was really funny because when I read the first part of a sentence like that, that is the exact point where i stop reading!

I've got a gag about research I found in a newspaper. It might have been the London Standard though I am not 100% certain. It's got a little bad language in it, so I hope it's deemed acceptable!

You know those stupid "how good a parent are you" type quizzes, well I found a satirical article about them I just had to share. It made me giggle.

Are you a crap working mother?

by Allison Pearson
Under interrogation: "you work full-time, you must be a bad mother!" (That was a picture of a woman in a police enquiry room).

Following recent scare stories about working mothers, I thought it would help clarify the situation if I ran a simple quiz.

Readers who are at all worried will be able to work out just how negligent they are ...

1)According to a new study, having a second baby can wreck a mother's career hopes. This is:

a. Because she is so sleep-deprived she forgets to pick the elder child up from nursery and is detained by social services.

b. Have you seen the childcare costs for two kids?

c. She has not had sex with her husband since last November, he is too busy in work to help out at home. Something has to give - and it's her job.

2)A working mother is more responsible for her child's poor exam performance than:

a. Teachers.

b. The child.

c. A working father.

3)Working mothers spend too little time with their children because:

a. They don't want to see the little brats.

b. British office culture is the most macho and workaholic in Europe.

c. Women are afraid to give up good jobs and spend their child's first years at home because there is no sure way back onto the career ladder.

4. How can it be that in Britain a chauffeur is tax-deductible, while a nanny or a childminder is not. Is it:

a. Because most chauffeurs and the people who employ them are men.

b. Keeping businessmen out of draughty bus queues is more important for the country's future than the wellbeing of small children.

c. Nannies and childminders are deemed to be luxuries for the well-off rather than necessities scrimped and saved for by anxious parents.

5. The children of a working mother will suffer most if:

a. They never see her.

b. She gives up work and they can't afford a new PlayStation.

c. She gives up work and the family home is repossessed.

6. Why are working mothers permanently knackered?

a. They spend too much time shagging in the office.

b. The working mother is never off-duty, always short-changing either her loved ones or her employers.

c. It's tiring keeping up with all those surveys about the evils of working mothers.

The average politician does very little to improve the lot of the working mother because:

a. His wife forgot to pack the sandwiches.

b. He doesn't want to offend big business or small business.

c. Secretly, he feels she should stay home like his mum did.

Answers: I think we know those already.

It made me laugh because she wasn't saying we don't spend time with our kids, she was making fun of people who think we don't! Especially laughed at 6 a). I wish!

It is a satire but I am willing to bet, certain sections of society who if they have read it, will think some of those statements are true!

You know what, I feel guilty about NOT working! Not that I stay at home and do nothing if you know what I mean, but I hate being dependant on dh's wages. This weekend is his birthday and I've been shopping for nice pressies for him, and then the thought came that I am actually spending his money on presents for him! It made me quite upset.
However I don't want to put dd in a nursery until she's old enough to talk, even then it will be a wrench, for what? Just a bit of extra money for us? So I don't feel guilty about spending his money? Doesn't seem a good enough reason somehow.

Jbr - you used to hate labels, well I don't like the term 'working mothers' as it implies that SAH mothers don't work, which I'm sure you all agree that we do. And I suppose I do earn some of his wages in that way, I keep house for him, cook 90% of the meals, entertain dd, all without a brew break in sight! But how I'd love to earn my own wages, to put a little money aside for me every now and then, to talk to other adults about anything other than babies!!!

I'm not making a point at all am I?! I'm feeling low as I just turned down a good job in Hastings to put family first. Is there ever a stressful a job as being a wife and mother?

lisav, i sympathise. when i was pregnant and working full time (no kids then), i felt physically sick at the thought of not earning money. i really did! i suppose it was more at the thought of being dependant as such. (in the event i had to work or claim income support because i'm on my own with the baby.) there seems to be a lot of emotion attached to money. when really your points about why put your daughter in day care are, in my opinion, totally valid. now i work part-time and claim benefits. i'm dependent on the benefits but somehow this doesn't feel so bad. hypocritical (spelling???) really!

is it the case that we'll always feel guilty no matter what. i have nothing but admiration for parents who choose not to have paid employment in favour of caring for the children. but thats because i don't do that and so feel guilty for going to work.

my brother is currently trying to go part time so that he and his partner who will also work part time can manage without child care for as much as possible. i think this is a fantastic idea

of course, you ARE working and your husband (your family) couldn't have all that he has without you doing your job. and vice versa. that seems so logical to me (altho'logic doesn't always make it easier to swallow i'll admit)- you're in a team and there are certain tasks that need to be done and you split them between you. without the other member of the team doing their bit you couldn't do yours.

if you don't need the money too badly maybe you could just earn money one day or eve a week. i know a few people who do this and find it fulfills your needs for your own income and adult (non baby) contact. it certainly sounds like you're in demand anyway.

when people make a point of changing terminology, its said to be too PC, but i think its really important. i hate the term 'stay at home' and think it should be replaced- but what would you put in its place. any suggestions? sorry what a long & boring post!

It is work if you make it work; I have never deemed anytime I have spent with any member of family a job. I never had anything to do when I was out of work. And being a partner isn't a job either. It's hard work because all relationships are but it's not a job. It's just your life.

And as for skivvying I wouldn't do it. I tidied up after myself sure, but that's my mess I made. And DP tidied up his mess and so on. I would never take a man's money and I wouldn't expect him to take mine. I'd lend him some yeah! I'd be pretty alarmed if a bloke said "GIVE me some money so I can buy you a present".

On a less serious note, regarding tidying up, my son makes more mess when he tries to "help"!

I know you think I'm a bit barmy talking about the equal distribution of wealth but I'd rather be "left" and a bit dogmatic than "right". And before you say, "women's work" in the home ie tidying up your own mess should be counted (some people still think we should earn a wage for what we do in our own homes!!) the notion of "women's work" shouldn't exist. I think you both bring in cash and both share the house stuff. It is not right that some sections of society have more money than others. We should all have the opportunity to at least try and get ourselves more or less on an even keel. Not saying exactly similar wages but enough so you can half the costs and then what you do with the savings you each have left (if there are 2) is your own affair.

I understand there are difficulties with this (ie no job to go to, no childcare or at least nothing you can afford or nothing flexible enough) but to object to it in principle? I don't understand that.

I also think it's high time men cooked their own bloody dinners LOL! Maybe in general, it is a throw back from the days when men had their mothers running around after them, I don't know!

Anyway, I've nothing more to add on this site. I've had perfectly harmless messages deleted on here for no good reason lately. I mentioned in another thread that a teacher had been assaulted by a 5 year old and it got deleted. I've no idea why!

Frankly, who cares if it is techincally "work" or whatever. What's important is that Lisav is making an extremely important contribution to the happiness of her family unit at no small sacrifice to herself. Call it what you like but you cannot diminish its importance.

I'm sure her partner and child appreciate and value her choice just like those families of those of us who choose to "work" outside the home do.

Jbr - it's not a question of me tidying up after him, we all make mess as a family and since he goes out to work long hours and earns the money to keep us all, I do see it as my 'job' to keep the house clean, cook the dinners, etc, etc. After all, if the roles were reversed, I would expect the same from him.
But he's not lazy in the housework dept either, he does his own washing (I ain't touching his dirty grots!!), makes his own sandwiches, tidies most of his own mess and occasionally makes us all a damn good curry.

I just long to be back in the workplace, exchanging gossip with colleagues, buying my clothes without feeling guilty, contributing to the family income. I feel so dependant on him, I really admire those of you who are single parents as I just don't know what I would do on my own, I guess I would have to work, or live in council accommodation. But then if I did work I would feel guilty about leaving my dd, it would be such a wrench to leave her, even with my husband.

I don't think you're getting censored Jbr, they have had a problem with people's posts getting deleted before. They usually tell you if they are censoring you, why not have a word with Tech?

Thanks Croppy - I like you!

You don't want to leave her with her Dad? Seriously, I don't know what he does for a living but I would try for something on a weekend or something. I can't see what harm it would do. It's finding something though. I do know someone who works Tuesday nights only but those kinds of things are hard to come by!

Take care

Listen Jbr old flower, Lisav didn't say she didn't want to leave her sprog with her husband full stop, she said she didn't like the idea of role reversal where he did her job while she earned money in the workplace.
I really resent anyone saying that my role cannot truly be considered as "work". Through my own choice I have a large family, and it is bl**dy hard work keeping it all afloat. I am sure there are areas where I could organise things differently (nobody's perfect) but the fact is that a share-out of roles and responsibilities happens in every family set-up. It is only a problem if a family member feels taken-for-granted or that they carry an unfair amount of responsibility. That's when communication is vital.

PS, Jbr, you said yesterday you had nothing more to add

Lisav I too would find it a real wrench leaving my ds with anybody, yes even his dad and I am only saying for long periods of time on a regular basis. I take the job of being a mum very seriously and firmly believe I should be here for him. The proof is in the pudding by the way the children I look after behave (btw Im not saying all children that are left with minders while their parents work are like the ones I look after or are affected by it).
Jbr you sound very set with this equal stuff, you do your bit Ill do mine, have you been walked over in the past and not going to let it happen again.

Like Mooma and Joe, I have given up paid work to look after my family. I did work part-time after the first 2, but stopped altogether after the 3rd. I, too, have a large family which is incredibly hard work, and it is insulting when anyone implies this is the easy option. But Jbr, I find it very strange that you would never take a man's money - surely in any relationship, we depend on our partners and they depend on us, whether emotionally or financially or in any other way. In my case, I do depend on my husband for money, but he is equally dependent on me for childcare, and running the home, which is no less important. If you live in a realtionship with another person, you can't continue to live separate lives, ot there is no point to it.

We didn't live separate lives we shared the finances. We halfed the bills etc. I don't see what is wrong with a couple of nights a week or whatever, I really don't. All of the kinds of organisations who say women should be "at home" always suggest loads of activities a la Melissa Hill that we could be doing and it seems anything which doesn't earn a wage is acceptable. If I or anyone else did half the things those groups suggest we may as well be at work!

Even if I had more kids and another partner and it got difficult, we would look at what could be done together. Even if some people are going to continue to believe for some inexplicable reason that one partner should earn money and the other shouldn't, I don't see why it is always the woman who has to come off worst.

And bearing in mind sometimes children don't even have to come in to the equation. We still have the Margos (the Good Life) of this world.

On a different note, my sister was in hospital and one of the nurses was talking to another patient. The nurse was telling the woman about her kids and everything then the old bat turned around and said "oh, don't you think you shouldn't leave them?". That nurse works 70-80 hours in a normal week and she has to put up with ungrateful cows like that! She told me (when I came to her rescue) most of the doctors are male (what a surprise) and work 100 hours (which is disgusting not to mention dangerous) and most have children, so what's the difference?

I think you may have misunderstood me - I certainly wasn't saying there is anything wrong with working. I am now working a few hours myself and have worked in the past and left my children at nursery ... what I am trying to say is that working is not the only option. I have been incredibly lucky in that I had the option of giving up paid work, as my partner earned enough to support us financially. What I was questioning was why you feel so strongly that you could never accept money from a man - would you never accept emotional or practical support either? They are all equally valuable.

I do agree with you though that the woman does come off worst financially if she chooses to look after her children herself - I have no pension to speak of, as the last few years (when I have worked harder than ever before!) are not recognised as 'work'.

Incidentally, your original quote which started this discussion is totally outrageous - I don't think any sane person would support views like that.

I did have a friend ages ago who took out a policy so she would have enough to support herself when she stopped working for a year; her husband earned enough to quit the year after she went back and her company held her job open. As seems to be usual (from what I've experienced) there was no nationalised child care in her area and giving up was the only option - it was easier than trying to get her hours changed and she couldn't work from home. I didn't even know you could get things like that, that you can cash in when you quit work. I couldn't be given a lump sum of £10000 though I'd spend it instantly probably! I remember what I was like with my student grant!!

I didn't know you could take out insurance against giving up work. Incidentally, I worked from home for a while when my first child was 6 months old, and everyone thought it was an ideal solution ... it was ideal for everyone but me, as I was stuck at home on my own, with no child care trying to fit in work around her sleeps! I'm now doing a bit from home again (they're all at school now), but I'd much rather be out with real people. Has anyone out there managed to get work which fits around school hours, but where you can take school holidays off?? Sounds too good to be true, but you never know...

JBR I was reading your Alison Pearson bit and it had me in stiches, unfortuneately some of it was just too close to the truth for words!

I am so lucky as I think I've said before i enjoy my job, but I still wish I could stay at home with my kids (occassionally) sometimes I could cheerfully give them away

CFR, I have been pondering the same question myself and I am afraid that the only answer I have, so far, is to be a classroom assistant, or, heaven forbid, a teacher!! (DH is a teacher!)
I am ruling out the teacher posiibility as DH works throught most of the school "holidays" as it is.
I am open to any further suggestions as I have no idea what I would like to go into when I return to paid employment, except that I absolutely do not ever want to return to my previous job - on call, late nights, weekends, long hours, c* pay.

I actually worked as a classroom assistant in my children's school for a few months, at the request of the school head, teaching the ALS (Additional Literacy Strategy). I worked a total of 2 hours a week (!) but it took up 3 full mornings plus a bit of planning at the weekend (most of the extra time was spent photocopying material and getting equipment together). I quite enjoyed it, but really wouldn't want to work in a school. I ahve a friend currently traning as a teacher, and others who work part-time as teachers - there seems to be a huge amount of time spent planning and marking outside school hours.