Not my surname!

[Trifle]

My partner and I have been together for 15 years, have never married nor do we intend to. Both our boys have their fathers surname and, at the time of their registration had no idea how irritating I would come to find this. From their medical, dental, school, nursery, passport, post office accounts etc etc, there is nothing to relate me to them. As I am the one who ends up taking them to most appointments I have to give their name which is completely different to mine. I have mentioned to my partner how irritating I find this and suggested changing their names to mine but he sees this as a sleight on his manhood. With the benefit of hindsight I would advise anyone to give their children their own surname.

I think it's easy to attach too much importance to surnames. I'd do whatever is practical for you, your dh/partner(s) and your children. And also use whatever surname sounds the nicest to you, double barrelled, different names for different occasions, whatever.

Go back in any family and there are lots of hidden surnames - all those of wives who marry in, and sisters and daughters who marry out. A family who produce daughters only could end with a host of new surnames for the next generation of children, yet you'd hardly say the family they came from had ceased to exist because of this.

In families who produce mainly girls over a few generations, surnames must change all the time. Are these families any less 'real' or 'together' than ones where boys have carried the same surname down the generations?

Firstly, wife beating isn't a tradition, or racism. Those are human traits. The butcher, baker & candlestick maker are not modern at all. Different trades for different things have been around for 100's if not 1000's of years.

I am merely pointing out that the collapse of things being done as they have been done for years is not necessarily a good one. For instance, I would love to stay at home and look after my DH & child. To go shopping at several different shops in a high st and perhaps (gasp) even speak to a few neighbours whilst doing so. To walk past a group of teenagers on the street knowing that they have been taught to respect other people.

However, the reality is different. I have to work to help pay mortgage, survive etc. My shopping trip is to a huge store that sells everything because there are no 'old fashioned' high streets anymore. Most teens I come across are loud mouthed yobs with no respect for themselves, let alone anyone else. Oh, but we as a society must have moved on because if one their parents attempt to tell them off/remonstrate with them etc, they can be reported to the thought police.

Perhaps my ideas of tradition are different to some people, but I know which idealistic world I would rather live in.

Regarding the comment of living off the land whilst DH goes to hunt/gather etc. I just love the 'Good Life' & 'No Going Back, Year in Tuscany' and would love to live like that. Back to basics and all that. Rant over.

Erm, butchers bakers still exist, and you can hardly move for candlesticks either. If you don't shop in them, I rather think it's because the supermarket is more convenient. Traditionally women couldn't own property or have custody of their children if they divorced... I just don't buy the idea that tradition = good, change = bad. And who's stopping you talking to your neighbours? I talk to mine!

I think that Wiltshire is getting a bit of a bad time here ... give here a break! I agree with her that wife beating and racism are not traditions ... She is just saying that why change things just because you can and you are saying why keep things just because they are old? There is a lot to be said about both sides of the argument.

Oh, and let's ban Christmas ... that's old ...

But nothing gets banned, does it? Just superseded by things people like more...

Message withdrawn

Have you ever read "The Invention of Tradition"? It's Eric Hobsbawm's (and others) attempt to show that "tradition" is basically always invented as a way of creating belonging etc. I think he is right - in my family we claim something is a Christmas tradition cos we did it last year! But it is not necessarily a bad thing to create belonging!

Bloss: How many Oxford students does it take to change a light bulb? Change? Change? Hmmm, give me 300 years to think about that.

Wiltshire,

Wife beating was traditional enough to be enshrined in British law. The phrase 'rule of thumb' originated in it. A man was allowed to beat his wife with a stick as long as it was no thicker than his thumb. I think that makes it quite traditional. Disgusting, but traditional.

Traditionally the lord of the Manor had the right to deflower a woman on the night of her wedding (to someone else).

It was traditional to take young appentices round the bounds of the parish and beat them with a stick so that would remember where they we not to stray. This has been adapted to the kindly 'beating of the bounds' tradition where the floor is beaten itstead. I bet this change got some feathers flying at the time

Traditional does not of itself mean good. Nor for that matter does modern/progressive.

Bloss you are right 'old things that I like' is a much better explanation than tradition. Thanks (was getting a bit scared there for mo, expecting burning crosses on me front lawn).

Obviously this all started by me saying that I liked the tradition of taking dh name etc. The examples that have come after that have been extreme; wife beating, tarring & feathering etc. Those examples are harmful. Whether they are traditions are, I suppose an indiviuals opinion.

I do not think that the tradition of taking your husbands name or getting married for that matter are at all harmful.

Getting back to why I think it's sad that traditions are being shoved down the swanny is just my personal opinion that to keep a society functioning, there has to be, dare I say it rules & morals (including some that are classed as traditions) for it to have a structure, otherwise you have anarchy.

I am putting me sprinklers on front lawn as a precaution

Hi Wiltshire - I get what you're saying for the most part, but it's tricky talking about tradition as a concept - when I read your first posting about it I immediately got worried that traditionally women marry men and have babies, and therefore dp and I wouldn't have been allowed to create our babies in the way we have, as it's certainly not traditional! But I don't think you mean that - I agree that the older-fashioned ways of being and living look more attractive when you're working your guts out and rushing around Tescos on a Saturday. In fact dp and I are just about to make quite a big life change - moving house to somewhere a lot cheaper, which means she's going to be able to give up work and look after ds, me and baby no. 2 when it comes along! She'll have time to shop at local shops and hopefully make friends/join groups etc., and as I like going out and working it feels like a really positive life change. So although we're not what you'd call a 'traditional' couple, in a sense we'll be living a far more old-fashioned/traditional life for a while at least (until the money runs out and I have to send her back out to work!).

Hear hear dot1

Excellent post Dot1. How's the pregnancy going ? Are you all ready for the big Manchester move ?

wiltshire I think you mean "community spirit" instead of tradition.That does seem to have deteriated in alot of places.But it is up to people like yourself and others like you to build a community.Talk to people, I do, talk to teenagers they arent that bad, ask them how they are you will find them backing down off their high horse and actually say hello back.(Not all but most)If there is no place fot them to go ie a youth club, some of you and your neighbours could organize something for them to do.Instead of waiting for it to happen or disappear completely do something about bettering your community.

thanks wickedstepmother - I'm fine - had scan yesterday and baby's still there! We're looking forward to the big move, but quite stressed - a lot to do packing up our lives whilst both working full time, looking after a toddler and me being pregnant!

I agree the term 'community spirit' is a good one - I'll miss where we live now because our road is like a 'Mr Ben' road, where we nod/smile/chat a bit to quite a few of our neighbours, and we're all a variety of ages and backgrounds. Hope to find somewhere similar 'up North'...!