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Nurseries

Find nursery advice from other Mumsnetters on our Nursery forum. For more guidance on early years development, sign up for Mumsnet Ages & Stages emails.

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Original poster

18 toddlers in a room with no staff- surely this can't be right?

58 replies

domesticslattern · 20/08/2008 09:52

Just went to visit a well-known and expensive nursery chain in the City. Although we arranged the visit ages ago, they had forgotten we were coming so effectively we were unexpected visitors. I was very shocked at what I saw, particularly with respect to child: staff ratios. But they assured me it was normal. Can someone please advise if I am over-reacting?

The baby room had 9 babies, and 1.5 members of staff. One member of staff was (silently) shovelling food into a baby's mouth. Another member of staff was sat at the end of the room on the floor, so that she could look either side of a barrier into the toddler room. So she was only "half" in the room, and not interacting with any babies. 3 babies were asleep, another one half asleep on a piece of equipment, and 4 listlessly crawling around with no human interaction. One rather pathetically put her arms up to us visitors for a hug.

When I remarked that I thought the ratio was meant to be 1:3, the member of staff said that that didn't count when the babies were asleep.

We then went into a room for 1-2 year olds, where there were about 8 or 9 all asleep, and 0.5 member of staff (the one who was half in the baby room and half the 1-2 room).

Then we went into another room where there were 18 (I counted!) 3 year olds all asleep and no staff. There was an adjoining room with 5 older kids and a member of staff. She was the only member of staff I saw talking to a child.

Is this right? It was the most depressing thing, but maybe I am not used to these things. And maybe we did visit at a quiet time, and you don't need to watch sleeping little ones. (Even if, rather pathetically, some hadn't quite managed to sleep on their mats and were on the floor ). It didn't help that the nursery was in a basement with no natural light in many of the rooms. It has no outdoor area, and we weren't asked to remove our shoes where babies were crawling. And the bottles of formula were all mixed up and left on the side- they didn't seem to know whose were whose when I asked. And the nappy changing area was dirty and smelly. And there was a half eaten Snickers on the side in the kitchen.... I could go on. Is this normal? Please reassure me, it has put me right off all nursery provision.

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nooname · 21/08/2008 12:53

Well from the sum total of what you've said it sounds horrible and I would go with instinct and not touch it with a barge-pole.

But, I would say that nap-times may well be different to other times - at ds' nursery you'll often get one person in a room with a number of sleeping children and the ratio would be strictly speaking wrong - but they're asleep!

It doesn't sound right that they were all asleep at the same time though, even the older ones - suggests they're being made to go down all at the same time even if they don't want to.

I would not even consider a nursery that was underground with no outdoor space.

Original poster

domesticslattern · 21/08/2008 18:51

Norkybutnice, CAT me and I'll tell you which one it was. I don't want to get Mumsnet sued!

OP posts:

CJMommy · 21/08/2008 22:53

Please report this nursery. I would and have done in the past......when I was a student Nurse, my first placement was at a nursery and it was truly awful!! Even at 18 years old with no kids, I knew there was something wrong so I reported it. See whos name is on the Ofsted report and ask for your complaint to be referred to them.

For what it's worth, my DS starts full-time nursery in two weeks. We went for an introductory session last week which was awful (completely different to our initial vist). I asked for a meeting with the Manager and she was horrified at what I told her. Hopefullt, it was just a blip and is being sorted but you can't leave your child somewhere that you are not happy with.

cadelaide · 21/08/2008 22:55

How the hell do you get 18 3year-olds asleep at the same time?

lisad123 · 21/08/2008 22:56

not normal or right. the private nursery attatched to our children centre, has 9 babies and 3 staff (even when asleep), and there is a rule of no shoes in baby room.
I would def report them to OFSTEAD

tigger15 · 22/08/2008 13:35

Definitely doesn't sound good. Ds's nursery has separate sleep rooms and what they do is there is a note on the door where they write which children are in and when put to sleep and they are then checked at least every 20 mins and are included in the ratio of 1:3. They are allowed to briefly go out e.g. to change a child and count that as part of the ratio but that's only for a few minutes.

I looked at city ones before going back last year and I looked at a non-chain one recommended by someone at work in E1. If you work near Liverpool Street, Aldgate, Fenchurch Street edge of the city it was a nice nursery and the manager had all his children in it.

cestlavie · 22/08/2008 15:40

I know exactly which one you're talking about. We looked round it about a year ago and discounted it for several of the reasons you mentioned (including disinterested staff, lack of natural light, small rooms). It seemed clearly to be designed for people who needed emergency child-care and actually I know one person who did use it for that purpose - their child absolutely hated it but, to be fair, they weren't in nursery usually so it may have just be that (as oppose to the fact that it was appalling!) There were a couple of much nicer nurseries within 5-10 minutes walking distance of there - if you need their details let me know.

cthea · 22/08/2008 15:46

Sounds awful & not at all as it should be. Keep looking, you'll know when you've found something good.

Neeerly3 · 22/08/2008 15:48

not right at all

Babies (under 1's) 1:3
Toddlers (1 - 2) 1:4
Tweenies (2 - 3) 1:4
Preschool (3 - 4) 1:8 (i think, don't quote me!)

outdoor time, imo, is a must, my boys nursery is set in woodland and is an old family home, the outdoor space is amazing. It means they come home covered in scrapes and bruises, but also tired and happy.

All nurseries should be following the new Birth to 3 directive, it's not a cirriculum as such but guidelines I guess on encouraging the development of little ones. They have milestones and goals to 'achieve'. If babies are just left to play unstimulated that is pretty poor practice.

i would steer clear and keep looking - I saw 3 before they one they are at 'clicked' with me.

mother2two · 22/08/2008 21:20

This reply has been deleted

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QuintessentialShadows · 22/08/2008 21:27

I would complain to ofsted.
I would also call the council and speak to the council. I had concerns about a nursery I had visited, and rang the council, told switchboard what it was regarding, and was put through to the right department. They made an unannounced spot check the next day (!) and rang me back with what they found.

If there was any chance I would be using this nursery, I would call as many as possible (ofsted, council) to ensure it shaped up!

ShinyPinkShoes · 22/08/2008 21:36

The ratio under the National Daycare Standards ( soon to be the EYFS) for all children under 2 is 1:3

Domesticslattern I have sent you a CAT

LittleMyDancingForJoy · 22/08/2008 21:37

definitely all wrong. We saw a couple of nurseries like this before we chose DS' nursery.

I liked it from the off, and was completely sold when DS was ill on his second week, and when I went to pick him up he was sitting on the babyroom manager's lap getting a really big cuddle. She'd clearly been cuddling him since before calling me to pick him up, and he looked so comforted.

Janni · 27/08/2008 22:34

My DD does half days at a lovely nursery in the City, with outdoor space and really warm, friendly staff. The only issue I have is that staff turnover seems a bit high, but the managers are good and consistent. CAT me if you want more info.

OMG I think I've just worked out which nursery you're talking about!! Before I came on this thread I was about to post a question about ratios because I saw two members of staff with six children aged between 1.5 and 3 years in a playpark. With the best will in the world there was just no way these two could keep all the children safe on the play equipment. I ended up helping them because I was really worried one of the babies was going to be hit by a swing or something. I thought about writing to the manager that I thought the staff were being exploited, but I guess if it's a 1:3 ration they'll be covered. This nursery charges a fortune and I think the parents would be very surprised at what I observed that day. I felt sorry for the two staff members because they were really working hard to keep the kids safe, but it looked like an impossible task.

littone · 27/08/2008 23:36

Janni - I think there should have been more staff. I do voluntary work with older children (aged 10 plus). We can have 12 per adult at our meeting nights but 10 per adult if we go out.

I remember my friend was going to volunteer for a school trip when her dd was around 5 but would have to take baby with her - teacher said not possible as ratios 1:2

Littlefish · 27/08/2008 23:54

Littone - I can't remember exactly what the required ratios are when taking Reception children out but it is certainly higher than 1:2. The school may choose to run school trips that way, but it is not a legal requirement.

Janni - I used to work in a private nursery and we were told by the Early Years advisors that the ratio for children under 3, when out of the nursery should be 1 adult for 2 children, even though it is 1 adult for 3 children inside the nursery & garden area.

Janni · 27/08/2008 23:56

Thanks, Littlefish. I think I will express my concerns then.

AngelNanny · 30/08/2008 23:08

Ratio's are:
Children 0-2 years = 1 staff - 3 children
Children 2-3 years = 1 staff - 4 children
Children 3-5 years = 1 staff - 8 children

However when children are sleeping you do not need as many members of staff. however for the children who are awake the staff ratios are the same. i.e 5 0 - 2 yrs awake - 2 members of staff and staff have to take in to consideration that the children can wake up at different times.

In the baby room you saw there should have been 2 - 3 members of staff.

In the Toddler room you saw there should have been 1 fixed member of staff in the room if covering lunch breaks (which is common)

In the last room you saw s the room was ajoining you dont count the reatios differently, the ratios are together so there should have been 1 fixed member or staff with the 5 awake children and 1 member of staff checking on the sleping children.

ShinyPinkShoes · 30/08/2008 23:14

AngelNanny I'm sorry but your interpretation of those ratios is incorrect.

Ofsted require that those ratios are followed for all children be they awake or asleep.

Just to qualify what I am saying- I used to work for Ofsted and my job now involves following the EYFS/NS's.

PavlovtheCat · 30/08/2008 23:16

Why were you visiting? Sorry I missed that bit...

ShinyPinkShoes · 30/08/2008 23:17

I think she was looking at the nursery in considering her childcare options

PavlovtheCat · 30/08/2008 23:19

I would not be impressed at the fact they had not remembered I was visiting in the first place, let alone their excuses for the ratio....

RedHead81 · 30/08/2008 23:29

It does count when they are asleep! Sleeping babies still need to be watched!

I think I would rather leave my baby home alone than in that nursery - it sounds awful.

AngelNanny · 01/09/2008 00:22

I meant that when there are say 9 toddlers asleep in a seperate room to the other 6 toddlers awake, there does not need to be 3 members of staff in the sleep room at all times.

there was misinterpretation of my answer obviously!

Original poster

domesticslattern · 02/09/2008 16:46

I was visiting because we may need to use it as emergency childcare Pavlov. I have just spoken to Ofsted who are quite clear that the ratios apply at all times, including nap time. They are going to investigate apparently- they take these things seriously as a breach of the regulations.

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