Can anyone help me choose between two nurseries?? Please??

[Rowlers]

God this is so hard.
I must be one of the least decisive people on this earth.
Been looking at nurseries with a view to taking a part-time place for DD from September.
Looked at 3.
Dismissed one straight away - just felt wrong somehow.
There are two others which both appear to be very good.
The first is quite a large converted Victorian "warehouse" type building with large rooms, all very clean and tidy and bright. Charges £32.50 a day, £18.50 for a morning or afternoon only slot.
Menu looked nice - mainly veggie and chicken, all food freshly cooked on premises. Snacks fresh fruit.
Staff seemed to be a mix but mainly young women.
Didn't see many children, no idea where they all were.
This one had quite a large indoor play room too.
Was shown round by deputy manager - took around 20-25 minutes.
Friend has her son there currently and is very happy with them, finds it quite "free" in philosophy.
The other place was much more "professional" in showing me round. Was there for an hour 15 minutes, spoke to the manager, was shown round rooms by different staff. DD sat with the other children and played while I looked round. She sat happily and chewed on a plastic toy and smiled at me every time I caught her eye.
Was shown a "typical" example of a day - seemed very regimented - change of activity every 1/2 hour or so.
Menu looked just as good, again cooked on premises. They claimed to give fresh fruit as snacks but I did see platefulls of biscuits at one point.
This one is cheaper, £31 a day, £18 for a morning and £16 an afternoon.
Children all looked happy and engaged.
Building is a seventies built extended family home so groups were separated from each other quite clearly.
Also have friends with babies there who are happy with the place.
The first would be more convenient for dropping off and picking up.
Both had similar outdoor play areas and trips to parks etc.
Sorry - using this as a way of thinking aloud.
Has anyone got any astute observations or questions whichj would help focus my mind on this? I'm finding it so hard ....

PS. Rowlers, its really down to what you expect from a nursery isn't it. You might be like Twiglett and be horrified at a nursery which is well structured and think its far too soon, or you might be like me and think its a good thing. There's no right or wrong, you have to go with your gut. my post was just to show that my child astounded me as I had some pretty ingrained thoughts about 'structure' and he showed me actually he liked it thanks very much!

leglebegle, thanks for your input. My first instinct has been that they will have enough time at school for regimentation but thinking again, I'm coming much more over to your viewpoint. As a teacher myself, I'm all too aware of how children NEED structure. I suppose I'd just thought it might be abit much for little'uns.
I'm off for my tea so if anyone else posts and I don't respond for a while, it may be the red wine which accomanpines my Friday night supper....

We are in the process of setting up two nurseries at present (have just gained OFSTED registration for the first) - so I'm responding both as a nursery owner and parent. I would think staff turnover has got to be high on the list of questions, we have recruited both of our managers from 'chain nurseries' and the recurring comments at interview, for all grades of staff, were about poor staff retention. This is due to many factors. Childcare and early years education is not recognised by many as a profession, wages are poor, understaffing is rife hence morale is low. Yes, it is a vocation but mortgages, bills etc still need to be paid and cost of living is high in our area -SW London/Surrey borders. We are paying our staff over the odds in salaries and benefits in order to (hopefully) retain the excellent staff we have found. Eg. we are giving a free childcare place to our managers and deputies for their first child and sliding scale reductions for subsequents. Early years provision is staffed primarily by young women who, as soon as they wish to start families, are unable to continue working as the most they seem to be offered in concessions is at best 50%. We have done the maths and yes, we will lose some profits but we are not greedy people and it is more important to us to run a quality nursery than to maximise profits.
Another area to look at is food, 'freshly prepared/cooked on site' can be misleading. A lot of chain nurseries use catering suppliers of cooked/chilled meals which are then reheated on the premises. These meals are often high in sodium and after being heated twice are woefully low in nutrients. If meals are being cooked from scratch, what quality of ingredients are being used?
Good luck with your decision, check the OFSTED report online (note how recent the inspection was) and use the excellent list of questions supplied by Rarrie. There are a lot of fantastic nurseries out there, unfortunately there are some stinkers too where children are viewed purely as a 'commodity'.

Thanks for that Bubble.
Apart from looking at signs of movement on the staff photo board, I did ask directly about staff turnover but got similar response from both. That it was low and they gave me examples of how long specific members of staff had been there.
How does one find out definitively? Is there a better question to ask?
I must admit I am slightly concerned that I was given a standard response by both nurseries and would appreciate any suggestions as to how to get the info out of them both!!!

If the OFSTED reports for both have identified only minor areas for improvement then you may be in the lucky position of having two good nurseries to choose from. Are either of them 'chain nurseries' and if so which? The chain nurseries can vary in standard from branch to branch - my main gripe, and this is just IMO, is that policies and planning are too centralised. We heard reports of staff asking for new toys/equipment etc. and waiting 3 months for essentials. Understaffing is a big issue, again, reports of staff being moved from one branch to another during OFSTED inspections to appear to be up to ratios.As owners, we welcome the spot checks by OFSTED which are coming into force soon - it should put a stop to this. Go with your gut feeling, you should have a few settling in sessions to begin with where you stay with your DD- this will give you more of a feel for the 'vibes' of the place.

Regarding staff turnover. Ask how many staff are unqualified. The legal limit is 50%. Some nurseries take on unqualified people at minimum wage, promise NVQ training at some point after their probation ends and never sign them up. Once a person has gained NVQ2 (one years training) they can be classed as a qualified staff member, but some nurseries are unable/unwilling to allow time out of the nursery to attend college - usually only one day a week- due to chronic understaffing.

One thing that influenced me very favourably about the nursery I chose was that when I asked if I could visit I was told to come whenever I liked, I didn't need to make an appointmnet, just that it would be helpful if I could avoid 12-2pm because of lunch and rest period.

When I visited I spent plenty of time just sitting in the background watching the children: what struck me was their confidence, their pleasant and polite manners, and their general happiness. Dh and I both feel that it's our responsibility to educate our children in their early years, what we want from a nursery is to provide the opportunity to learn the social skills that they will need in school. That the nursery we chose happens to have a qualified teacher on the staff is just icing on the cake!

My personal choice would be number one.

Am i right in guessing no. 2 is a large chain? If so they do tend to concentrate on "appearances, professionalism etc" and this does not always spill over into the childcare as such.

I like the less formal approach that no. 1 seems to have. You say its large, clean, freshly cooked meals.

The fresh fruit on menu/ plate of biscuits actually given wouldn't surprise me for a large chain. Neither would a tin of chicken big soup, being described as freshly cooked meals.

I have just chosen between two pre-schools for my dd. One is really popular in the area, has super regimented routine and all young staff, and the children have to wear uniform.
The one i have chosen is not so popular, much less formal, no uniform, two members of staff have been there 18 years. I have checked their ofsted and their curriculum provision and both are very good. I want to know that my dd is in a place where she is allowed to be herself, make choices as to which activity she will do, and be cared for by staff who genuinely love their job.

As you said, there is enough time at school for strict routine and uniforms etc.

Sorry i've gone on a bit here. I just worry that children are becoming "educated" a little too young these days. Children learn from play, and need space to develop their own personalities at such a young age.

I remember reading some research about a European country where children didn't learn to read until the age of 7. A high percentage of them were more advanced in their skills than British children who learned at 4. The outcome was those who learned at 7 had gained so many skills from the "freedom" they had in their early years and were naturally ready to begin learning at 7.

hth!

Uniform IMO is a very good idea. Mine are in uniform, and until ds started at nursery I was not too keen on uniform, but within a few days I saw the benefits: easier to get dressed in the morning, saves wear-and-tear on clothes, no fuss of 'but Xxx has a Teletubbies top and I want one too', and the children are easily identified and kept track off when they go on outings (which they do every week or two).

I like the sound of number 1. I woiuld go with your gut instinct. I had a bad experience with a big chain (and a very happy experience with a non chain). I think number 2 sounds like a chain and number 1 sounds independent which is probably why I've said number 1!

It's interesting the chain thing - the first is one of 2 nurseries both owned by the same people and the second is one of 3 or 4, all in the same area. The second has been open since 1982 and was the first opened by the owners who then subsequently expanded. But they last opened a nursery in the 80s and have no intention of opening any more.
Both owned by locals.
The owners are not involved on a day to day basis with the hands-on running of either nursery.
Both are run by a manager.

Tough call Rowlers. Neither of them are multi-nationals - both are smaller scale. I would be tempted to go for number one. I like the sound of the large indoor play space, given that it rains for so many days each year in this country - that is important.
Number two's plate of biscuits sounds suspect too. There is nothing wrong with the odd biscuit, but if the menu says 'fresh fruit' then that is what should be given. I would be wondering how often the menu is not followed. I know I keep going on about the food, but when you consider that children attending full time have 10 meals a week at nursery - it matters.

I like the sound of No. 1 too. Prefer things not too regimented at this stage and like the way you described it as large and bright (or somesuch). I'd go back again though, as manay times as you need to, to either or both, your gut feeling should come to the fore in the end.
With DD when we moved last year (loath to move her from the nursery where she was VERY happy and well cared for in N London but we were moving too far from that one) we finally went for one that was recommended highly by a friend but which I was initially VERY dubious about. The way my mind was changed was by visiting on a number of occasions at various times of day and talking to different staff. We are now really happy that DD is there, and so is she. For info, it is staffed by a mixture of older women and younger, what some might call "common", girls. They are all wonderful with the children and what the kids might lack in terms of super structure and regimented learning they are more than compensated for in laughter, cuddles and play. Just mentioning this because I wouldn't want anyone to be put off by the idea of the younger, possibly less well educated, carer.

Just a quick update!
Thought we'd made a decision and opted for number 1 for a variety of reasons and put in our application.
Talked again with my friend whose son is there and she said something which really put me off.
She said she was happy with everything there but recently when she went to pick up her son one of the women grumbled about her being the only one who ever changed pooey nappies. There was a queue of tots waiting to have their nappies changed and the other women busied themselves with other "tidying up" jobs.
It's really put me off so we have put in an application for the other one two.
Is that really naughty of us?

No, it's crap of them imo. (stalk stalk!)

You've got me scared now www.....

Message withdrawn

In the area I live most people seem to apply for more than one nursery as the waiting lists are very long and you are never guaranteed a place so you need to hedge your bets.
I applied for 3 for ds (but visited plenty more) and was only offered a place at 1 of them - which I snapped up.
Have you asked about their waiting lists/likelihood of having spaces?