What is it that drives up the cost?

[peepsypops]

I have always wondered this. We all know nurseries are expensive - but what is driving the cost?

Is there anyone here who works in this area that knows?

I'm imagining insurance and heating costs - but I think childcare has been ludicrously expensive prior to energy costs increasing.

I would be genuinely interested to know - I don't get the impression there are huge profits made, so where does it go?

My own kids are older so I no longer have any skin in the game. I'm just thinking about friends and family members with young DC who are struggling with childcare bills.

When was the last time you tried looking after 8 x 2 yr olds for 10 hours ?

What an awful thing to wish for.

Even if we pretended that so many children in our Nurseries don't have the significant needs they do, looking after 4 - or 5 as the Government recently changed it to - two year olds at a time on your own is just overwhelming.

I have a friend with triplets, and looking after 3 was just exhausting. Why on earth anyone thinks an EYP should look after 8 is beyond me.

These poor children. It seems to be all about costs now and not what's in the best interests of the child. Let's just Jam Pack them in with low paid workers 😟

The inevitable thing will be expensive nurseries with reasonable ratios, and cheap nurseries with overwhelmed workers looking after way too many children. Which is when accidents happen.

Are you happy for those children to receive less interaction, unsafe environment, waiting longer for nappy changes or a cuddle, probably zero outings....

There's a reason childcare is expensive. That reason is because it's our most precious beings and they deserve the best.

The answer might be more government funding and investment. It is never underpaying and overworking the staff who chose this work.

I am a childminder and wouldn't increase my ratios even if it were legal and certainly not to be paid the same amount for cramming more children in.

I work in a nursery that pays above minimum wage.
Isn't doing the new ratios but sticking with the old.
Is at full capacity with a waiting list.
It's £72 per day.

Cost of building
Utilities
Replacing toys
Food
Upkeep and supplies
Nappies and wipes
Insurance
I'm probably missing somthing

The biggest thing driving up the cost is the staff. Nurseries don’t make that much money - they’re probably comparable to a small shop - but where a small shop owner employs one staff member, a nursery owner has to employ 10-12. Some of those staff will be on minimum wage, but even the cost of that is crippling.

The other thing driving up the cost that no one ever really considers is that everything costs a nursery 20% more than it would a comparable business. Nurseries are VAT exempt, which is only really beneficial for parents. The additional 20% that nurseries have to pay on everything, from tissues to agency staff, really cuts into whatever small profit you do make.

Nurseries are also difficult to run. Parents have unrealistic expectations and there are always problems. It’s physically and mentally exhausting and really not worth it when you add up the hours you put in compared to what you get out of it. Realistically, you probably make 50p an hour when all’s said and done!

I work as temp/bank staff for nurseries and yes, it is staff cost- as many as 10 temps a day are needed (it’s a large nursery with about 70 children over the 5 days and there are 6 different rooms) to cover the ratios as they just cannot recruit or retain enough staff- the hours are long and the pay is terrible. As a temp I earn £14 an hour which isn’t great and far less than I earn in my other job as a nanny, but that’s more than the experienced and qualified staff there- some are only on minimum wage and it goes up to £13 an hour max- that’s very unfair and they are rightly pretty put out about it but the nursery cannot run without drafting in temps. The chef is agency too and on £24 an hour but the food is shite because the budget has taken a huge knock and the food prices increased by so much, and the number of children means he needs an assistant but they can’t afford one- temps with a hygiene certificate get sent in to help of ratios allow. ‘Seasonal green veggies on smashed potato with a rich cheese sauce’ was on the menu last week. This translated to boiled cheap white potatoes with the skin still on, some broccoli lobbed on top, and a sprinkling of cheese from a cheap catering packet. They had to cut back on the cleaning staff and now have to use a rota so staff clean the bathrooms and hoover at the end of the day now. It’s running on the very very edge of going under and it’s not the only nursery that’s in this situation- this is in Surrey and not a deprived area.

Oh and in the preschool room which is 1:8 ratio there are three SEN children, but they don’t have a designated person, although they are applying to have one for when they start school. They all have differing needs and the staff are run ragged trying to accommodate those whilst having 20+ other children to provide activities for and supervise, not to mention the admin and paperwork that Ofsted are insist they complete on the daily.

When you think about staff cost, it's not just the staff in the ratios you need to consider but the cook, the cleaner, at least some management cost. Also, you always need at least one if not two spare members of staff so you can still keep to your ratios when people are on holiday, off sick & that sort of thing

And on top of the £14 per hour that you get, the nursery will be paying an additional £4-6 per hour plus 20% VAT to the agency. So somewhere in the region of £216 per day x 10 staff x 5 days = £10,800 per week x 50 weeks = £540,000. 10 agency staff is a bit excessive, but even 3 would cost £162,000 per year.

This is what the money goes on, and that’s before you factor in rent, business rates, utilities and consumables. And don’t forget, you need a big space for a nursery, so the rent is much higher than the small shop owner’s rent, even though the turnover is roughly the same. Oh and of course, there’s the cost of the beautiful wooden furniture and toys that the parents expect (most of them IKEA quality but 1000 times more expensive, plus VAT naturally).

No one has ever got rich from owning a nursery. It’s not possible.

I personally think child are is at the expected price. People are happy to spend on cheap plastic takeaways but not for someone to look after their children. I would pay more.

Wages, mortgage/rent, taxes - private nurseries pay VAT while school nurseries are exempt. Toys, resources, equipment, transport (car costs), utilities, food, cleaning supplies, tissues, washing machine and tumble dryer, nappies and wipes, maintenance, insurances, online programs such as Tapestry, admin and computers, printers… and so on. There are a lot of outgoings to keep a nursery running that aren’t immediately obvious.

Wages. It’s a bloody hard job. I wouldn’t want to change poohy nappies, mop up sick, wipe snot all day long, call parents and say ‘Hi Johnny has a temperature, can you pick him up’ (In reality she wants to say ‘why the fuck did you bring Johnny in? He’s clearly unwell!’). Remember those rainy days when you are stuck at home with a 12 month old and they won’t stop crying and are teething and it’s really hard to get through the day? Times that by 35 kids, remove the telly and tablets and then you realise why the costs are so much.

Good for you. Do you think that might be an incredibly short sighted comment?

Yes you would definitely drive more practitioners away from the job. Already a massive recruitment crisis as it is!

plus the more children per staff the lower the quality of care, which has an ongoing impact with children not having the emotional support or skills they need for school and much more.
Bad idea all round really!

It's very easy as to be in favour of revising ratios if you aren't actually working in the sector.

Every nursery worker I know is against the recent 1:5 change for 2 year olds, depending on children and dynamics of differing needs, 1:4 can be hard and feels relentless.

Increased ratios mean less time spent on your child. Nappies will take longer to get done as you have to juggle ratios within the room to go out and do it, your child may be crying with no one to cuddle them as there literally isnt another spare arm or lap, your child will have to wait to have a story, or someone to listen to and play with them. Not to mention the dangers during eating times or when playing in the garden.

Staff will leave due to burnout, and nurseries will struggle to retain trained and passionate staff, which means no consistency and exciting learning opportunities for the children. They can't then form strong bonds and may struggle to settle and feel happy to come to nursery.

The only people who will suffer are the children, that's why we do this job. I can't believe anyone would be willing to sacrifice their children's mental health and physical safety for a cheaper nursery bill.

This but I'd also add

Staffing (not just ratio staff, there will be managers/cleaners/cook etc
Extensive training to keep up with Ofsted etc.
the massive shortfall in funding rates also needs to be covered

Does it make a profit? Does it own the building/ small mortgage?

16 two year olds with two adults? Can you imagine one adult on nappy duty, which would take over an hour for 16 children, leaving the other adult crowd controlling 15 toddlers! Times this by at least 3 times a day!
Not to mention every time first aid is needed, a child needs some one to one comfort etc.

We are sticking to 1:4 even though we could go to 1:5 because we struggle to meet the wide range of needs we have arriving. There has to be another way than sticking more children into already stretched nurseries.

@PrincessOfPreschool the building has no mortgage. It's been a successful family run nursery for 30 years.
It does make a profit.
But that money is put back into maintaining the building and buying staff uniforms

Anything over a 1 to 4 ratio for 2yo is dangerous. We all disagree with the change to become 1 to 5 in the sector.

Two year olds are dangerous - they climb, they put things in their mouths, they bite and push their peers, they have tantrums which involve kicking and throwing things, they climb into water trays, they eat paint and glue, they choke on food ...

They are toilet training, they need nappies changed, they need clothes changed, they need supervised snack and meal times, they need cuddles and attention, they need help to settle to naps...

1 to 8 is really not a realistic option!

Ah, no mortgage is a very big one. No rent or hire fees at all.

I'm sure not ALL the profits are ploughed back into the business, otherwise it wouldn't be a business! But it's great that they can afford to pay staff properly and I'm sure that's reflected in the quality of the staff and the general attitude to work/ levels of motivation.

I’m in mainland Europe. Nursery ratio is much higher. It’s 1:8 for under 3, 1:10 for 3+.

Ds room at 2 was 1 teacher, 2 assistant for 20 children.
Now from 3 until he’s 6 it’s 1 teacher and 1 assistant for 20.

With these ratios they are still outside in forest school, taking everyone on bus to town etc

I don’t know how they do it, but they are fantastic. Most of the staff have been there years and years, so no high turnover ( as in 10 years+). Childcare is completely free in our state.