Nurseries are ripping you off (top up/consumables)

[OPH7719]

Hello,

I'd like to debunk the myth that nurseries are underfunded. It's simply no longer true.

This article covers the changes in funding to childcare providers in broad detail - https://www.gov.uk/government/news/childcare-settings-receive-cash-boost-as-funding-rates-increase#:~:text=Nurseries%20and%20childminders%20across%20the,hour%20they%20provide%20to%20parents.&text=Nurseries%20and%20childminders%20will%20benefit,investment%20in%20childcare%20in%20England

This link will provide you with exactly what is being provided to your providers from the government per hour: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/656638f3750074000d1ded9a/20231127_Early_Years_Funding_Rates_and_Step-by-step_Calculations_2024_to_2025_Funding_Output_Tables_-_FINAL.xlsx

This is important because childcare providers are continuing to insist on charging additional fees listed as 'consumables' even when parents provide consumables directly.

These charges have always been optional, as they are mandated legally to be optional.

Stop appeasing these nurseries profiteering from what was supposed to be parent's savings. Just because you're "up" overall doesn't make it right for them to be stealing a piece of the pie - because they are doing just that - stealing.

There's no transparency in this industry. Call them out, and stop paying them these illegal fees. Report them to the local authorities if they insist.

[Ivapalava]

I’m a childminder, I’m one of the cheapest in my area. The funding is £1.55 per hour less than my hourly rate. For a child who does 8 hours a day that’s £12.40 less than I should be earning, £62 less a week. That’s just for one child, the figures are more staggering when you consider that all the children I care for are funded. That’s without even taking expenses into consideration.

Would you suddenly like to have a big pay cut? Would you like government to instruct you that you must earn less in order for other people to reap the benefits? Would you like to do more work for considerably less wage?

[TheChippendenSpook]

@Ivapalava

I’m a childminder, I’m one of the cheapest in my area. The funding is £1.55 per hour less than my hourly rate. For a child who does 8 hours a day that’s £12.40 less than I should be earning, £62 less a week. That’s just for one child, the figures are more staggering when you consider that all the children I care for are funded. That’s without even taking expenses into consideration.

Would you suddenly like to have a big pay cut? Would you like government to instruct you that you must earn less in order for other people to reap the benefits? Would you like to do more work for considerably less wage?

Well said. I'm no longer in childcare and haven't been for a few years.

I do know that you are very underpaid for what you do and childcare settings are definitely worse off now and have been since the funding for three year olds began years ago.

I don't think people realise (or care) how much it costs to run a nursery. Wage bills alone are staggering and that's paying people minimum wage and then you've got heating and electricity bills, insurance, food, toys, paints, paper, crayons etc. It's staggering.

[bradpittsbathwater]

So should childminders and nurseries make a loss because the government won't pay them the going rate? It's not their fault. Our childminder charges extra for "consumables" which I happily pay as I don't expect her to be working for a pittance.

[bradpittsbathwater]

Direct your annoyance at the government

[OPH7719]

@Ivapalava

I’m a childminder, I’m one of the cheapest in my area. The funding is £1.55 per hour less than my hourly rate. For a child who does 8 hours a day that’s £12.40 less than I should be earning, £62 less a week. That’s just for one child, the figures are more staggering when you consider that all the children I care for are funded. That’s without even taking expenses into consideration.

Would you suddenly like to have a big pay cut? Would you like government to instruct you that you must earn less in order for other people to reap the benefits? Would you like to do more work for considerably less wage?

You're referring to funded hours for 3-4 year olds only.

How much do you make off of funded hours for 9-month-olds and 2-year-olds per hour?

[OPH7719]

@bradpittsbathwater

So should childminders and nurseries make a loss because the government won't pay them the going rate? It's not their fault. Our childminder charges extra for "consumables" which I happily pay as I don't expect her to be working for a pittance.

They're not running at a loss - though. Did you read the post?

They're overfunded by almost x2 the market rate for 9 month olds, overfunded by about 1.2 the market rate for 2 year olds and underfunded slightly for 3-4 year olds.

[DrJump]

Childcare should have some of the highest paid salaries! We are talking about looking after our youngest and most vulnerable citizens. If we want two working parents in each family then we better cover a truckload of the cost of childcare so parents can return to work. Caring for our children should be a respected and highly sort of position with good pay and excellent conditions.

[WavingCatsandDogs]

Nobody goes into the childcare profession to profiteer. Lots of childcare providers are shutting up shop.

Your post is utterly ridiculous.

[nannynick]

So from a business perspective, nurseries should only care for 9 month-2 year olds. Those may be profitable.
As a business they need to run at a profit, so should avoid doing anything which is not profitable.

[Rosindub]

@DrJump

Childcare should have some of the highest paid salaries! We are talking about looking after our youngest and most vulnerable citizens. If we want two working parents in each family then we better cover a truckload of the cost of childcare so parents can return to work. Caring for our children should be a respected and highly sort of position with good pay and excellent conditions.

who do you think would be paying for childcare if you earned more than your service consumer? You'd be swiftly out of a job.

[Morph22010]

@OPH7719

You're referring to funded hours for 3-4 year olds only.

How much do you make off of funded hours for 9-month-olds and 2-year-olds per hour?

Did you read the reply she said all her children are funded

[Sletty]

Don’t think you understand the realities of this OP tbh.

[polkadot24]

Just wanted to say that yes the government publish those figures BUT each local council takes off a certain % from that for 'admin'. So in my area from that top figure, the council take over £5 per hour, per child. The new younger child funded rate is the highest it's ever been at 7.37 per hour for 15 hours. The 3 year rate is 4.93. Apparently this all needs to include my wage, craft materials, toys, outings and bringing in tutors for special topics. It's not possible. I'd like to add that I'm qualified with 20 years experience so the pay does not match the level of experience. It's a very hard job with low pay and zero respect, no sick pay, no holiday pay and a whole lot of expectations and paperwork. Oh and I've wrecked my body 🤦‍♀️

[Meadowfinch]

OP, your post is absurd. It shows a total lack of understanding of the costs of running a childcare business. It is silly and ill-informed.

I happily paid my childminder the going rate because she was brilliant, caring, totally reliable, allowed me, as a single mum, to work - and therefore to live and provide a decent life for my child, I couldn't have done it without her. She was worth every penny.

[Caspianberg]

I think you’re forgetting, these rates are only for 30 weeks a year. Ie term time only. For people who are working there’s 48 weeks a year they need covering.

so Government say rate for 2 year old will increase £6 to 7.95. But that’s only for 30 weeks the year.
So the other 18 weeks there’s is £0.
It’s also for only 15 or 30 hours a week ( depending on what your allowed). A child going 8am- 5pm is 8hrs a day, 45hrs a week. That’s 15hrs or 30hrs per week not covered. And 45hrs a week not covered for 18 weeks of the year.
Most nursery’s will be averaging child care prices out so the parents pays the same every month, not cheaper 30 weeks and double 18 weeks

[PickledPurplePickle]

YABVU clearly you have no idea how businesses work, how much staff costs, all of the other costs involved

[meditrina]

You are actually correct that top up fees (whether over or by stealth) have been banned since somewhere around the early 2000s. Top ups in this context meaning additional cash or other inescapable anciliary fees (such as lunches, consumables, other hours bundled in)

And at the time when that was brought in, a lot of nurseries went bust or were taken over by larger chains.

Because there never was a time when any government provided an hourly rate that met cost of delivery.

Before the scheme expanded (lowered age of eligibility, expanded number of hours, inclusion of other types of provider) then it just about clung on.

But now, with the latest changes, the creakiness has become just too much, and yes top ups are back but usually in the "disguised" form so that everyone can politely ignore that they're back.

People go along with it, because they fear widespread closures (or withdrawal from the scheme) if anyone reported their setting and they were directed to stop the practice. But that could happen.

The banning of top-ups was not a good policy, and should have been changed by the following administration. It's predecessor (c.1998 when top ups were allowed) or its original form (c.1996 voucher scheme) were better, as parents were glad of the discount, and the scheme was simpler for everyone, and costs were more transparent.

[WhatILoved]

I'm a childminder and your post really saddens me. Other people have explained the finances and that the LA take a cut. I'd like to add that no one is thinking about the children - Here is an example: I don't charge for consumables because I don't want parents like you to have the option of bringing in a packed lunch (so that they don't need to pay it). So the extra I need will be in the higher hourly rate outside of funded hours (which you'll need to do or I'll take the next person that will do more than the funded hours). Sharing a cooked lunch together is an integral part of our day and the children learn so much and eat a healthy unprocessed meal. It would make my day so much easier if I didn't cook for them and just gave them warm sandwiches from home, but the children come first and it's my job to care for them. Do you want ratios in nurseries to be so high that it's basically like herding cows and no education?

Your post also makes me sad as most of the childcare workforce are women. This funding, which I'm in favour of btw, will get more women back at work. Why do you think the women that care for your children are worth less than you. Do you want these women living in poverty?

[WhatILoved]

@meditrina

You are actually correct that top up fees (whether over or by stealth) have been banned since somewhere around the early 2000s. Top ups in this context meaning additional cash or other inescapable anciliary fees (such as lunches, consumables, other hours bundled in)

And at the time when that was brought in, a lot of nurseries went bust or were taken over by larger chains.

Because there never was a time when any government provided an hourly rate that met cost of delivery.

Before the scheme expanded (lowered age of eligibility, expanded number of hours, inclusion of other types of provider) then it just about clung on.

But now, with the latest changes, the creakiness has become just too much, and yes top ups are back but usually in the "disguised" form so that everyone can politely ignore that they're back.

People go along with it, because they fear widespread closures (or withdrawal from the scheme) if anyone reported their setting and they were directed to stop the practice. But that could happen.

The banning of top-ups was not a good policy, and should have been changed by the following administration. It's predecessor (c.1998 when top ups were allowed) or its original form (c.1996 voucher scheme) were better, as parents were glad of the discount, and the scheme was simpler for everyone, and costs were more transparent.

Totally agree. If I was allowed to just charge a simple top up like before I'd be able to offer the full funding for a 3 yr old and it would be cheaper for parents. Currently I only can afford to offer 15 and make up the loss from charging high hourly rate outside of those hours. I used to do consumable charge then parents started trying to bring own lunches etc so I've stopped that.

[governmovern]

PP who said Local gov take £5/child/hour for admin?! Blymie!!
Ours has just agreed 5% on the new funding. So going forward, OPs sentiment will be correct (at least in my area)- nurseries will suddenly be getting more per funded hour than per privately paid hour. Will be interesting to see what happens with consumables charges etc then.

[Autienotnaughtie]

It's exactly as the first poster says.

So the money drop initially will come off her wage. So she works the same hours for less.

But then with more funded children it starts to have to come off the business. So she might do less or cheaper outings. Buy less toys/crafts for her setting. So the quality starts to diminish.

So then she has to make up this deficit so she has to start charging for things that normally would be included in the price. So nappies, crafts, food and drinks outings,

And this does have to be optional so if a parent wants/has to they could provide it themselves or opt out of it.

But as more and more parents access the funding then they still need to recoup the deficit so they end up charging more for non funded hours.

It's a crap situation, the parents end up not saving, the nurseries and childminders are skint.

The government needs to pay more if it truly wants to support working parents. It probably needs to be means tested as well for it to be affordable.

[Jellybean85]

Fine don't use nurseries then op 🤷🏻‍♀️ we're very happy with ours and don't feel 'ripped off' at all. They provide amazing care and activities for our child and it's worth every penny

[Morph22010]

admit I don’t know much on the specifics of nursery funding but this document seems to indicate it varies by la area, my la is getting less than a tenner per hour for under twos nothing like what the op article said and that’s before the la have even taken off their slice, 3 to 4 year olds is £5.20 agin before the la slice is taken off. National minimum wage is same


https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/656638f3750074000d1ded9a/20231127_Early_Years_Funding_Rates_and_Step-by-step_Calculations_2024_to_2025_Funding_Output_Tables_-_FINAL.xlsx

[ChipsAreLife]

This is ridiculous OP have you applied any critical thinking here?

Loads of nurseries in my area are stopping accepting the funded hours now across all ages as it's not viable and clearly people like yourself think they're 'stealing'. Tells you everything.

Personally I'm happy to pay for what the workers and business require. My children's safety and wellbeing is hugely important to me