Picking a Nursery

[KoalaChaos]

Hi.

So, my DS just turned 5 months and I will have to return to work in January ish when he is approx 9 - 10 months (depending on taking some holiday to extend my leave)

All of the nurseries near me say they have waiting lists until January so my timing is OK for them.

There is 2 that I have rejected outright due to horrifying ofsted reports (toldlers left unsupervised when eating resulting in choking, no hand washing facilities and potties being emptied into the kitchen sink whilst it was actively being used to prep food for lunch 🤢)
But I am lucky enough to still have 3 other nurseries to choose from very close to me.

I have booked visits to all 3 of the remaining nurseries to happen this week on Wed, thur and Fri since DH has the week off and we can go together.

Problem is we sat down this afternoon to plan our week and when we got to the nursery visits we said "ok, we are going here, here and here.... erm.... what do we do when we are there? We know we are supposed to look at them but what are we looking for? What do we ask? Surely a nursery is a nursery?"

The 3 that are left do have some variances in their ofsted reports but they are all things I think I'm OK with. I know the reports aren't everything but they are all I have to go on right now.

My question is, what do we ask? What are we looking for?

Any input is appreciated 🙂

It's just fairly obvious that the more adult attention each child gets the better. The lower the ratio, the better. 5:1 is better than 8:1, 4:1 is better than 5:1, 3:1 would be even better.

Of course a ratio of 8:1 where that adult is brilliant is better than a ratio of 2:1 where that adult is awful, so it's not always black and white, but as a general rule you want your child getting their needs met as often as possible and that's just more likely in a small group setting.

If something like never leaving the premises is very important to you, then definitely ask. Most nurseries will at least go out for walks sometimes.

Think about whether there are any other things that are very important to you.

In terms of sleep - nursery staff aren't magic 😆But they can tolerate a lot more crying than the parent of a baby would.
Most nurseries will try to cuddle or rock a difficult sleeper to sleep - they will also let them cry a bit.
If the crying is disturbing other nappers they will get them up.
Most babies are sleep-trainable, some are quicker to adjust than others.
Honestly though (having managed a baby room) - you do get some that never adjust to napping at nursery. Especially if they are only in nursery part time and are always held or fed etc for sleeps at home.
They just stay awake all day or sometimes fall asleep on the floor or at the table!

No I get that! But a blanket ‘avoid a setting of 5:1’ as PP are saying makes no sense to me. If the 5:1 setting is fantastic- happy engaged kids, long term staff, great garden etc then why on would you discount that based on the ratio alone?

The previous minimum ratio was 1:4 for 2 year olds. 1 to 5 is worse because each child will get less care and attention, and each adult will be more stressed.
Most British parents (and staff) wouldn't accept 1:8 because we are used to higher standards of care and attention, safety, activities etc which one adult can't give on a 1:8 ratio.

I was on a Facebook group with a childcare worker who moved from the UK to France and found working at those ratios very stressful, because she wasn't used to the amount of crying, children having to wait in dirty nappies, rushed meal times, limited activities, feeling less safe in terms of supervision etc because she was used to working with lower ratios.

Even worse is that the change in ratio will not benefit parents with lower fees, or staff with higher wages - it will just mean nursery owners make more profit.

Going straight to a ratio that is worse for the children and the staff just because it will increase profits shows what the owner's priorities are.

No, I agree a blanket avoid policy is silly.

If you've got two nurseries and one is fantastic with a ratio of 5:1 and the other is awful with a ratio of 4:1 then obviously go for the 5:1 fantastic nursery.

But asking about ratio and aiming for the lowest ratio possible within your budget is advisable.

I’d be looking for high level of interaction between all staff and children as well as management interaction between staff and children.

look at the garden, does it have lots of opportunity for Play and to learn

do the children in their care look happy are they having fun.

I am a nursery agency worker and have worked all over West London. Some good some bad.

Firstly, when you go for your show around be observant and see if they seem too fake or or too 'on'. That means its not like that all the time.

Staff should be relaxed and friendly and just getting on with it.

Ask to do a show around at lunch time, they will they to say no as its the busiest time. But this is how you really see what is going on. How do they settle the children for lunch? Do they wash their hands? Are they wearing bibs? Encouraged to feed themselves? Are the staff wearing gloves? Is there too much shouting and stress?

Whats the routine? Do they go out everyday?

Also try to see what the staff turn over is like.

Just remembered, how clean is the nursery? Do they use spray and cloths or is there kitchen roll everywhere?

Yes, show round times are usually carefully chosen eg 10am, children are all settled after coming in, half will be napping so the room doesn't look crowded, no staff on lunches so staffing looks high, children will generally be at their best, not tired and not messy/dirty yet!
Getting ready for lunch is the most stressful and chaotic time of the day in a busy baby room so I would be very impressed if any nursery allows a prospective parent to see that.

Fascinated by your hatred of outings OP! Ours have them out every day which we see as a huge positive. They go out with a wagon thing like someone posted upthread and/or triple buggies depending who's there that day. Always in their 3:1 ratios (I often see them out and about). It's so much nicer for the babies and the grownups to be able to get out and get some fresh air. They often walk to Asda, buy some bird seed and then go to the park and feed the ducks. Or walk along the marina to see the boats. I'd hate to think of them staying at nursery all day long.

In terms of what to ask, agree that your instincts and the vibe is important - the one we chose is the least shiny of the ones we viewed but the staff clearly love children. Ask about illness policies.

If I was a parent I would say that this is the only time I could visit due to appointments or my lunch break.

In a good nursery, lunch times are enjoyable. Everyone chips in and the children are focused on eating so it actually feels like your getting a little bit of a rest to sit and be with them, encouraging them to use their cutlery and praising them.

In bad nurseries the first lunch breakers are out of there, the children washing their hands and sitting down is chaotic. The food isn't ready and some staff are shouting and almost force feeding children to eat quickly. Then they send them to bed with a dirty mouth and hands

You wouldn't be able to see any of this on a show around. I have been there in bad nurseries when there are show arounds and they know how to fake it. The management pull out all of the stops and tell a lot of lies.

Also in good nurseries the room leader tends to do the show around not management.

Also beware of nurseries that have been around for a while but on Ofsted say that they have been recently registered. It is a tactic they use when they get a bad Ofsted they reregister under a different name for a clean slate. Wisely, Ofsted also have an option on their website that shows other nurseries or schools registered at that address.

We're talking about under 2's who should absolutely have a higher ratio than over 2's, though 5:1 is still a no for me for over 2's too. Like pp said, I wouldn't want to send my baby to a nursery that immediately switched to the lower ratio.

I pay over £100 a day for nursery fees for 1 baby, it's incredibly expensive and I wouldn't accept anything less than the lower ratio.

So it’s like value for money thing for you @SouthLondonMum22 then? Thanks for sharing, I guess we all have our own priorities and it’s definitely good advice to get yours straight before viewing so you know what you’re looking for. Personally I’m more about the staff themselves, unlike OP definitely rate an outing and knowing from experience that the chaos of 1:8 somehow manages to function, I personally couldn’t give 2 hoots about 1:5!

Just a point to add though- is it sensible to make that a point of consideration now when looking for a baby place? What’s the guarantee that when funds are tight, which is probably only going to get worse as more funded hours come in, that the nursery will actually stick with whatever they’re saying now about staying at 1:4? So many nurseries near us have closed or reduced hours because they can’t stay profitable and because of that I wouldn’t take them at their word. So personally I’d have it in the back of mind they’ll probably go to 1:5 at some point, and make sure I was happy with everything else. Maybe I’m being overly cynical though…

I expect good quality care anyway but money is a consideration. I'm happy to pay more money if it means certain benefits such as trips outside and yes, a better ratio especially for young babies as my DC started nursery at 12 weeks.

My DC's nursery is incredibly popular to the point I'm due in April and already have new baby on the waiting list.

I'd suggest that you look after 5 x 2 yr olds, on your own, for 8 hours, having to do everything like change nappies, clean up spillages, soothe tired little ones or those that are a bit under the weather, prep things (like playdough or paint), toilet train, prep food / snacks, clean up before and after food, change them when they get soaked in the water, etc etc, even before the fact you are statistically very likely to have one of those dc with quite significant additional needs in a group. Then do it again, the next day, and the day after, then come back and ask that.
My friend had triplets, and it nearly broke her. You are talking about 5 dc .

I say to avoid nurseries with a 5:1 toddler room ration for 2 reasons. Firstly, they get less attention. Secondly, if you're a member of staff and you have the choice between working at 4:1 or 5:1 which would you choose? To have more children to look after with more paper work for no extra pay, or fewer children? Good staff will be avoiding those nurseries so you should too.

So much respect for anyone working in childcare, or parenting triplets, I would definitely be crap at both! Nursery workers do have colleagues though. Also breaks. So not sure how comparable your friend’s experience of her triplets is, even though she’s clearly amazing.

I just know so many happy, well adjusted French and American kids despite their 1:8 ratios that I just don’t see how 1:5 is a bad thing. My DD also started a British school nursery right after we moved at only just 3 since she’s a summer born which was 1:13. So it’s pretty sharp uptake in ratios which I also find strange. More importantly knowing the state of the sector, I wouldn’t trust that anything a nursery says now about ratios will still be the case in 1-2 years.

But sorry to derail your thread OP. Good luck finding the right setting for your baby. You seem to know your most important priorities eg no outings so that’s good. I promise I’ll stop now, I was just really interested to hear others perspectives - I hope you don’t mind!

Trust your gut instinct!

Nurseries buff up when they have a 'show round' so you will only see the best in all rooms. Go back for a second visit outside of typical show round times (varies by nursery, but avoid lunch time usually 11:30 / 12pm) you will then get a real feel for what's going on.

Ask about the ratio for two year olds because any nursery who is following the new ratio of 1:5- though perfectly legal is not thinking IMO of the children's or staff wellbeing. Meeting the developmental, educational and care needs of two year olds on a 1:4 ratio is hard enough for the toddler staff the new ratios are absurd!

Visit the pre-school room for 3-5 year old children and ask about the learning and development requirements within The EYFS and to see an example of planning. It should planned purposeful play with a mix of child led and adult led activities that helps every child make progress. Ask how they observe and track also.

Do the children look happy and engaged? You should see some children's mess from activities , such as sensory play painting and messy play, but the environment should be both clean, tidy and calm. It should not be chaotic.

Staff are they happy and engaged with the children.? Many nurseries have high staff turnover. What is the composition of staff in terms of experience and qualifications? Be cautious of any nursery that has too many apprentices or inexperienced (usually younger staff).

Their key person system - your child will have a named key person who looks after their interests and in 0-2s should dip all of their personal care, where possible. Any good nursery should have a secondary/buddy/back up key person system in place . The buddy key person will support your chid if their main key person isn't in where possible. It is not always possible due to shifts starting and ending, holiday and sickness.

Every staff member should be paediatric first aid trained. The legal requirement is one member of staff, but walk away from the nursery if not every member of staff is not first aid trained. Some nurseries have their staff trained in Millie's Mark, which is additional first aid/choking training.

The Baby room leader will have a level 3 minimum and needs to have had specific training and experience with 0-2s

Level 2 staff work under supervision , Level 3 or above staff are the ones in supervisory positions- alt least one member of staff in each room must be level 3 qualified.

Ask what they would do in the event of being over ratio? This will tell you all you need to know. The ratios at the moment are 1:3 0-2's, 1:5 2 -3's (1:4 is better) and 1:8 in pre school, but in pre school this can change to 1:13 at certain times of the day if a level 6 (degree level) member of staff is a qualified early years teacher with early years teacher status or qualified teacher status.

Trips- it is a legal requirement that children have access to outdoor space. If the outdoor space is limited or none then it is expected that nurseries take the older children out daily in all winds and weathers.

Nursery trips form an important fun part of the nursery day and extend the children's learning. They are all risk assessed and it is usual for the ratio to decrease on trips ( e,g 3 year olds on a trip will drop to a 1:4 ratio rather than 1:8 or they should) it would never just be one person. Babies are safest on trips as they are usually in (triple) buggies.

your choice, but if you are that parent and do not let your child go on a trip - the nursery staff will probably dislike you because you may stop them taking other children in the room on a trip because the ratio will be messed up.

Food - ask to see an example of the food if you can. I was once in one nursery where sausage casserole was on the menu- what was served up was hot dog sausages from a tin, tinned tomatoes and tinned veg.

Finally try and relax I am sure your LO will enjoy nursery once settled.

1:5 is possible/doable, it just isn't as good.
Less care and attention for the children, more crying, more waiting etc.
More stress for the adults.
Owners whose priority is profit over the experience of the children or staff.

Similarly, lots of people prefer a setting that offers 1:8 for 3 years olds rather than 1:13.

An update after viewing the first of our 3 nursey options today.
It was lovely. We don't know if we just feel we like ut because its the only one we gave seen and its all just normal or it us actually that good so we are still going to view the others to compare.
Every toy and climbing thing was wood and well made rather than plastic and disposable, the food is all made on site and they have loads of policies for allergies 😊
They don't take the kids out on trips (I know it's controversial but I'm happy about it) they don't feel the need since their outside areas are about 6 times bigger than their internal floor area. They have greenhouses and plant growing areas, climbing areas, sand pits, regular outside play areas and a mud kitchen 3 times bigger than my ACTUAL KITCHEN. They also have a massive awning over it so they can go out in any weather. And despite being out in the mud kitchen all morning (it was very well used) they were all very clean and happy so aren't left cold after outside time.
And because its part of a chain of nurseries, when staff are ill and they dont meet their ratio then they call them in from the next nearest branches so no agency staff in and out.
😁

Not Busy Bees is it?

No. We aren't viewing a busy bees. There is one near my work but I want to start looking for a different job so wouldn't be going that way in an ideal world

Sounds lovely OP

One thing to check is the additional qualification the staff have. Millie’s mark was the most important for us but at our nursery they also all hold some type of speech and language qualification.
The trips out for under 2s are uber safe, sometime just a ride in the quad buggy to the fruit and veg stand or something connected to our wider community.