How much communication should I expect from nursery?

[sleepslikeababy]

My 2 yo started nursery at the end of July. He does 4 mornings a week. He loves it, runs in every morning, and always comes out beaming.

My issue is the lack of communication from the nursery. They have an app (Tapestry) but it hasn’t had any photos added to it since August. There is Parent Mail but the last email was for the Queens funeral (last minute closure). At handover a different worker each day will bring him out and say ‘he’s eaten loads, had a great day,’ or some variation of that. I hardly ever see who I think is his key worker Is this normal?

He’s our first so not sure what to expect. I feel a bit like I have no idea what he’s doing or how he’s doing for half the week.

To clarify, we have no concerns about behaviour or development, I just feel like there should be more information shared.

Am I wrong? What’s the communication like at other nurseries? Should I not worry because he seems happy?! I don’t want to make and issue where there isn’t one…

Agree with @Kite22 below. There seems to be a difference in POV between people who see nursery as primarily an educational setting and those who see it as care while parents work/have other responsibilities. But it really isn't a formal educational setting- as pp said, it's a substitute for home for young children, same as a childminder. I'd be extremely unhappy if my 2 year old were constantly being assessed, as that's not what I am asking or paying for. Of course you need to know if there are problems, but beyond that I feel like people are turning the the concept of nursery into something it's not.

I certainly don’t want a blow by blow of every movement he’s made, nor would I want him assessed constantly. But a, ‘he played with a new friend today’ or ‘he liked the obstacle course’ or ‘he learnt his key workers name’ is all I’m looking for. I work as a lecturer at a university so I have no intention of coming home and lecturing him about shapes! I would just like to know what he’s doing - broadly speaking. If I had a child minder I’d expect some sort of ‘we went to the park today’. Not just ‘here’s your kid back, bye’

I don’t think it’s unusual to have an interest in what he’s been doing at nursery. He’s only 2. And only just 2! It’s not like he can tell me. Maybe when he can it won’t seem so odd to me.

But based on pp’s I think I should take the lack of comments as a positive - in that they’re probably not concerned about his development. And be grateful that he seems happy to go each morning and happy to come back! And lower my expectations of what will be fed back to me.

That’s not accurate and really unfair.

They have been caring for the child and taking an active interest, likely for a very long day. Sometimes I get more feedback from CM, sometimes she’s rushed off her feet and has cared for my DC for ten hours straight.

Please don’t say silly things like that, if the nursery has to improve in communication a bit it’s not because they’re uninterested in the child.

I was responding to you saying they show an interest by saying xyz when they pick up. They are not doing this to the parent at pickup. They’re simply saying ‘he ate lunch, bye.’ That doesn’t express interest in the child to the parent. It feels like a brush off. An active interest could be shown in simple communication.

Sounds like communication could be better at your DCs nursery. We use Tapestry at my workplace and parents get two detailed observations each month.

Up to age of 2, we also complete care diaries daily (nappy changes, meals, sleep and milk feeds).
Parents are given a handover each evening, but nothing too detailed; we’d mention what they did that day, how they were, whether they may have made a new friend etc; but this also depends on a member of staff that’s doing a handover, some keep it very basic.
When we do have concerns, it is more likely that we’d mention something.

However, don’t feel shy to ask! If you want to know some more details, ask at the handover. We have parents who are more than happy to just see their child smiling when collected, and we have parents who love a breakdown of their whole day.
I do have to say, if your DC comes home
happy every day after nursery, they seem to be doing a good job, even if they aren’t best at communicating.

Honestly, there’s no time to update these apps. If you have 40 kids and each observation takes 15 minutes, that’s 10 hours. What would you prefer, the staff looking at a screen for 10 hours or interacting with the children?

Be realistic - it’s just not possible.

It is possible. Most nurseries do it - not an observation per child daily, but weekly/regular observations for each child. It’s not impossible at all. Of course the staff member won’t be staring at a screen for 10 hours. Pictures will be taken while staff model/carry out planned activities with the children (takes no time to snap a photo while you’re already doing the activity) and then uploaded as a group observation/individually during the keyworkers paperwork time.

I know this - I own a nursery. These observations are the bane of my life. We do them, we have to, but it increases the pressure on staff beyond belief and it takes time away from the children. It’s nice for the parents, of course, but it’s horrible for the staff, many of whom struggle with basic literacy or don’t speak English as a first language. Everything revolves around the observations and the unreasonable demands of the parents. Even teachers don’t have as much paperwork.

I live near a nursery and see from my home these planned activities. How one staff member hovers around trying to get the picture, when it’s over you can see them visibly relieved while one goes off to the corner of the garden, ignores the children for a while while they fiddle with their Ipad. It seems a bit staged and stressful!

So you know it in fact possible? I’m sorry you have such a high level of staff who struggle with literacy - of course that will exacerbate the difficulty. Is your nursery in the UK? I’m surprised so many of your staff struggle with basic English literacy because you need at least functional skills for your qualifications.

As for the op who can apparently watch nursery activities from their home and judge how stressful they are, not sure what to say about what. Maybe it’s not a great nursery. That doesn’t mean that other good nurseries can’t upload an occasional picture and give verbal feedback. Or possibly you’ve just watched them on a bad day, watched a careless member of staff etc.

I see them day in and day out, they are Outstanding. The older children seem happier than the younger ones, it’s a constant chorus of the younger ones wailing in the morning which can be distressing to listen to.

I really don’t disagree with you btw that basic communication and development updates are too much to ask for, just that having seen behind the scenes it really does take staff away from the children and we can’t deny that they’re often understaffed or stretched and underpaid.

There seems to be two camps of parents mainly, ones that want the early years learning and development side focused on and evidenced and ones that want the interaction and care to happen through in the moment spontaneous play.

This week saw a toddler pull another toddlers hair very hard, the nursery worker was fiddling with her IPad of pictures she’d just taken of them watering plants presumably updating app. The toddler that had her hair pulled screamed and cried, worker jumped up to ask her what had happened - child unable to tell her. Cue other workers coming outside to ask what had happened - the worker did not know because she was too busy on her IPad. I was tempted to shout over what had happened from my bedroom balcony but of course didn’t!

Of course it’s possible, anything is possible, but it’s very, very difficult. Yes, a lot of my staff speak English as a second language. My nursery is in London, where most people who work in nurseries speak English as a second language.

Look, even if they spoke English fluently, they would still find the observations challenging - the ones who do (the minority) struggle with them also, because they are not academically inclined. If they were, they wouldn’t be working in childcare. Most of the time, they don’t know what to write, so the observations are nonsense. All of the time, they are misspelt and grammatically incorrect, so they need extensive editing before they can be sent to parents. It’s a full time job.

I can’t believe that this isn’t the case in all nurseries. In 20 years, I have only employed a handful of staff who could write observations well.

The more I think about it, the more outrageous I think it is that nursery staff are expected to do this, plus meet the needs of the children that modern day parenting has created (some of them are very damaged). All of it on minimum wage because the government pay approximately £5 an hour for the ‘free’ places, and the parents think it is their right not to pay any more.

No teacher would do this amount of paperwork - their unions would not allow it. I feel awful putting this sort of pressure on my staff, but I have the parents putting the pressure on me. The observations get done, but it means that the staff are stressed and unhappy (and it’s unavoidable because they are always worrying about paperwork) and it increases costs massively because you can’t go down on numbers when someone is uploading photographs and writing 40 observations a day - you have to pay for extra staff.

I'm an ex Ofsted inspector and I'm sorry to hear your staff are under so much pressure to produce observations.
The inspection framework changed some time ago to address this problem. There is no requirement for staff to produce written observations.
I've been to some outstanding nurseries where they have minimised their paperwork. The quality of care and education is largely now judged on the interactions between staff and children.
For those staff with weak literacy skills they can demonstrate their knowledge of their key children through speaking with the inspector.
When I speak with parents and they tell me about their child's relationship with the key person and how they have helped them settle and progress is of great value. I wouldn't spend time on an inspection looking at observations, because as you say, they often aren't accurate or well written.
I'd advise you to reduce the volume of assessments your staff are carrying out.

Thank you for this. It’s clear that you have a real understanding of the issue.

I know that Ofsted have (supposedly) taken away the requirement for nurseries to produce observations (not sure they have in reality - the inspector scrutinised the observations in our recent inspection), but parents have the expectation that they receive them, and on a daily basis if this thread is anything to go by.

It’s completely unreasonable and unrealistic, and it affects the quality of care that nurseries are able to provide. That is reality. It is simply not possible to produce 40 plus observations per week and ensure that attention is paid to the children at all times. Staff can either interact with the children or interact with their iPads. They can’t do both at the same time.

DS1's nursery was like that and at the time I did wish we could get more insight and photos but it was a minor issue overall. DS2 goes to a different place and they go OTT IMO, I get tons of notifications about wet nappies, dirty nappies etc it actually makes me wonder when do they have time to look after the children if they're constantly updating the app in real time. I mean he seems happy there and I'm happy with them in general but I do think it may be too much pressure on the staff. I don't need to know every detail.

The staff would contact you if they had concerns over any aspect of development. If you are getting good 'had a nice day' feedback it means they have no concerns at present. We would schedule a meeting with a parent who wanted more detailed updates but we don't get onto update Tapestry as often as we'd like but we are keeping notes and observations for our progress trackers each day.

It’s great to hear the perspectives of nursery staff, owners, and Ofsted inspectors. I think I have a much better understanding of the pressures faced by those who look after our children now. I would far rather staff spend their time engaging with the children than updating apps, but if I feel I need more feedback on how he’s settling in, I feel more confident to just ask now! I certainly don’t need to know about nappies and lunch etc for a child my son’s age (can see why this would be nice for younger babies).

I also teach, but adults at university - nothing like how I imagine 40 2 years olds to be 🙈
I’m grateful we found a setting my son seems to enjoy and appreciate the staff’s hard work!

*because they are not academically inclined. If they were, they wouldn’t be working in childcare. Most of the time, they don’t know what to write, so the observations are nonsense. All of the time, they are misspelt and grammatically incorrect, so they need extensive editing before they can be sent to parents. It’s a full time job.

I can’t believe that this isn’t the case in all nurseries. In 20 years, I have only employed a handful of staff who could write observations well.*

I don’t really know what to say about this. If you genuinely don’t believe that all nurseries aren’t staffed by people with a very poor grasp of English then I don’t know what to tell you. Many of my colleagues (me included) have degrees. All of us are capable of writing a paragraph in English describing the actions of a child. It’s very very basic. If you’ve struggled to find staff who are able to be trained and supported to the point they can write a simple observation then that must be very very difficult, but I assure you it isn’t the case in all nurseries.

Whereabouts do you live out of interest?

Obviously don’t want to be too specific but North England. Either way I’m sure it’s not impossible for you to believe that any nursery has staff that can write in basic English.

I think it’s probably very different outside of London.

Possibly - either way you still said you ‘can’t believe’ that any nurseries don’t employ a majority of staff who aren’t capable of writing simple observations. I was just pointing out that luckily that’s simply not true. Most nurseries do in fact employ staff who can write in basic English.

I would presume though that even in London practitioners do need qualifications - I would question how your staff managed to achieve those qualifications without at least functional skills in English to the point they can’t write a simple observation.

My own opinion (for what it’s worth) is that course tutors are not too fussed about grammar and punctuation so long as the student gets across the gist of the argument. Plus, the requirement for childcare students to have functional skills in English and Maths is fairly new; a few years ago they didn’t need this.

The Ofsted inspector above agreed with me on the generally poor standard of literacy among childcare workers. Presumably, she has seen thousands of observations, so maybe the nurseries you have worked in are the exception rather than the rule?