What would you think if you saw this at your baby's nursery?

[jorange5]

Following on from the incident at DD's last nursery www.mumsnet.com/Talk/2320/408153 I am looking for an alternative one.

Now, I realise that I am a bit hypersensitive after what has happened but DD went for a trial morning at her new nursery and I was not too impressed.

Last time we visited all the babies looked happy and content and there were 5 babies and 2 carers. This time though there were 6 babies and one more to come in so i asked if more staff were coming and they said yes. Three of the babies were crying non-stop but they said it was because they are tired and grumpy. I returned 2 hours later to find 8 babies including DD and the same 2 carers. One was doing nappies, the other was spoon-feeding a little boy. The 5 other babies were crying their eyes out (DD was happily playing).

I have a few concerns about this:
1 - The staff to baby ratio
2 - The crying babies, which i realise is because of the lack of staff
3 - The baby being spoon-fed was sitting in a car seat and was therefore semi-reclined.

Is this sort of thing to be expected and am I just expecting too much? DD is very easy going and will just run around pleasing herself generally (which i think was the reason she got a bit neglected at her last nursery) so I don't think she would get upset but does it all seem a bit indicative of a general lack of care?

Any thoughts? Sorry for the ramble!

They only seem to inspect daycare on a six-year cycle, so may not have actually inspected the nursery yet (the early years reports are here).

This is the one for her nursery: says nothing about babies It's not that impressive for the older kids, but it is all about education, not really their standard of care.

I think I was misinformed before... the specifically childcare (rather than nursery education) aspect is done by the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales, rather than by Estyn (in England OFSTED do both).

Their report is here.

Does NOT sound right - quite horrific in fact.

Leave my baby there?

I would report them

Wouldn't leave a baby in a nursery myself - I think they are much better off somewhere where they can form a relationship with their carer and have continuity of care (ie if you can't look after them yourself try and get something that mimics that relationship). However fantastic a nursery might seem the fact remains that if you have one person looking after several babies there will come a time when they all cry at once so some have to be left to cry (not out of cruelty, but out of necessity while they wait their turn). Ask any mother of more than one child - however much you may hate leaving your baby to cry sometimes you just have to for a short period while you sort out the other one/s. I think what is more stressful for a baby in a nursery is that they don't know who they are crying for since it won't always be them person looking after them. Don't see a problem with a baby being fed in a car seat - often did that myself if I took my children to other people's houses.

Mmms. Of course, if you want to go for the "natural" argument then in a traditional extended family setting a baby might be looked after by a couple of grandmothers, a clutch of aunts, and potentially some older sisters as well as by its mother. So, provided that the nursery has a low staff turnover so that the small group of women involved is pretty consistent, I don't see that the baby is necessarily stressed or deprived.

Not knocking your child-rearing choices as they obviously work well for you, but mine have worked fine for me and for DS.

Never saw anything like that when DD was in the baby room at nursery, and she's been there since she was six months old. Although they can start at four months, most of the babies are six months plus, ie at an age where they don't just randomly cry for ages (unlike newborns), so to have five going for it all at once sounds a lot like one started, wasn't comforted, and the others joined in after a while. It must be hard looking after three babies at a time, but I honestly never found DD in tears when I went to collect her, and she was a very intense baby, could never just be left to get on with it. You CAN find better care for your DD.

This is why I wouldn't leave my under 2 in a nursery. I'm not anti-nursery per se - my dd has been when since she was 25 months, and now at 34 months old she spends 16.5 hours a week at nursery - but I think if you really need childcare for an under 2, I would check out your local childminders. The sad fact is, that although what you described is 'wrong', what you witnessed is a lot more common they people in general are willing to admit - certainly in public.

I have never forgotten the woman MP who said SAHM were a problem. Yeah, because you want our tax for working and then tax again from the nanny.

I think a surefire way of finding a good nursery is to ring round and find the one with the longest waiting list, and stick your DD down for that...IME the one where we had to wait to get in has been fantastic (in fact our current nanny was originally caring for my DS in the baby room when he went there); the ones that had instant availability were no-where near as good.

At a good nursery I would expect that kind of situation to happen once in a blue moon.. In four years of having children at nursery I can honestly say that at the good nursery my DC's used/use, not once have I walked in and found multiple children crying and unattended (and I have gone in unannounced many times). My current nanny has told me a million horror stories about the Mark Warner resort she worked at last year, but hasn't had a bad word to say about the nursery we use (other than whinge about salaries there!)

Isn't the staff to baby ratio meant to be 2 babies to one carer? Once they get over 18 months I think it's 3 to one carer.

I sent my DS to a nursery (through a recommendation) when he was 6 months old. I had the gut instinct to run out of the place when I first went in there but just thought I was being over-sensitive. He wasn't cared for very well, developed severe nappy rash and the most hideous stomach bug in under a week. I would pop in unannounced and every time he'd be screaming his lungs out on the floor (usually a relaxed baby).

My advice would be to look for another nursery. After this incident I went to a childminder. I moved house when my son was about a year old and he went to a lovely nursery and aged nearly 5 and about to go to school, he is still there and loves every minute of it. We both are comfortable with the surroundings and the people who have cared for him and that makes all the difference.

I agree, Squiffy -- I'm a little under 4 months pregnant at the moment, and if I wanted this DC to start at DS's current nursery at 6 months I'd need to sign him/her up right now (fortunately I don't want him/her to start that early, but I still have the form in my bag and will get it in within the next few weeks). This nursery doesn't advertise at all, its website consists solely of its contact details, and until a couple of months ago it didn't even have a board outside or any kind of obvious indication that it was a nursery (eventually they had to put up a board because delivery drivers kept having trouble finding it). It gets that full just from word of mouth and parents getting a good feeling looking around it.

I think if anyone's gut instinct is to run out of a nursery (or any other kind of childcare) then they should definitely follow that instinct.

Mumofhelen I agree. If I were the OP I would push the boat out and go for the lovely childminder until dd is old enough to reap the benefits nurseries undoubtedly have to offer for older children.

I spent many hours sitting in the baby room settling my 11m ds in. As my ds was going to start fulltime, the nursery had an 8 week settling in period - which is great.

As far as I can see, babies cry, as they will do, at home or anywhere else. When that happens one of the carers will go to him/her. At most, and that was rare, more than one baby will be crying at the same time. But there was always enough staff to tend. And more staff were drafted in at mealtimes to help with the feeding.

If a baby had to wait, it would be maybe 3 minutes before someone was free to look after.

So, jorange5, I would say the scenario you described is not satisfactory.

All in all, my dd's and now ds' nursery exceeded my expectations. They both attended from 1 year. Both of them are very demanding babies and so I did not want a nanny or childminder as I could not find out what went on behind closed doors. A nursery provided all the checks and balances and many arms to cuddle. hth

Go with your instinct.

it happens, yes the ratio is 2:1 babies:adults
babies tend to set each other off when they cry and as far as im aware its not a specification to have an extra pair of arms if your a nursery nurse
we fed the babies in carseats (in locked position) as it was easier and often safer than putting them in highchairs and having your back to the others etc

have you visited different times day looked on from outside turned up unannounced? talk to other parents all the staff etc see if they are happy there

it is possible that they were tired hungry but if nappies needed doing then that is a priority too picking up a crying baby

I understand that there was no deliberate negligence going on there, I hope I didn't seem to suggest that. My concern is that there just isn't enough staff and time to deal with the babies needs.

I have decided not to send DD to this nursery as my gut feeling is that I wont be happy with her going there. I have heard enough from everyone on here too for me to be satisfied that I can expect more from a nursery.

I only require care 3 mornings a week and I really can't afford a childminder. I don't work but I help to care for my grandmother, if I knew I would need nursery care for my 1 year old I wouldn't have had a baby but this is my situation and I am stuck with it.

I have found another nursery that can take DD but only until february so now I need to find a nursery that will have a place for her then.

Can everyone keep their fingers crossed that this nursery is better for us?!?

"I don't work but I help to care for my grandmother, if I knew I would need nursery care for my 1 year old I wouldn't have had a baby but this is my situation and I am stuck with it."

Please don't say that. I'm not in paid employment either and it upsets me when you say that you wouln't have had a baby if you knew. Don't take any notice of people who make you feel bad - there's rarely in life a "correct" or "perfect" time to have a baby. Have a child in your teens, and you're accused of being too young and being financially insecure, have a child at 35+ but then you're considered too old. Have a child before a career is established, and people claim you've ruined your chances of having a career. If you wait until your career is established, then people accuse you of wrecking your career. IT NEVER ENDS!!!! You're damned if you wait and you're damned if you didn't!

Not all nurseries are like this. I like ds's nursery as soon as I went. And I still liked it, when I had to move him. And I liked his new nursery as soon as I went.
Liliangish clearly doesn't like nurseries. That is fine. But she seems to have an idealised view of childminders. If there is more than one child, then there will come a time, at some point, that either a baby will have to be left to cry for a short time, or a child will have to wait. This is the very nature of looking after more than one child. And nursery or childminder is no different to a mum with more than one child, in this issue.
Plus childminders have their cons aswell as their pros. For example, many do not belong to 'circles', thus if the childminder is ill, you are stuck. Atleast with a nursery, care is guaranteed.
And jorange has already said that the childminder she really liked doesn't accept vouchers. So to suggest she could use one, is just impractical.
What are your thought jorange ?

I would not judge someone else for sending their child to nursey. It is just that for me i find it very hard to leave DD with 'strangers' when she is so little. That's what I meant when I said I wouldn't have had a baby if I knew I would have to have her looked after by someone else when she is so young. I thought I would be her carer until she went to school. Luckily DD is an absolute dream when it comes to leaving her at nursery (or anywhere to be honest) because she just loves being with people and messing with loads of toys. She never cries and is a little star according to the last place. This eases my guilt somewhat.

I really don't think I can use a childminder unless they take the vouchers and if I found one that I could afford then I would be concerned about why they are so cheap. Therefore I am focussing on finding a satisfactory nursery and if the one i am seeing on monday is OK then I will have to use it until a good local one has space. Unfortunately it is 12 miles away though but that would still be better than sending her somewhere where I will worry that she is surrounded by screaming babies and being ignored.

I feel very sorry for you, that you don't have more choice. There are a number of excellent nurseries and childminders both where I live and where I work.
What a shame that you don't have this choice.
But you must be happy,with your childcare choice - that is essential.
Wishing you the best.

I think that you have made the right decision - when I was looking for a place for my ds, the first place I looked round (most convenient) I felt like rethinking the need to go back to work - however, I did find a really good nursery where he has always been happy - always handed over smiling child (now runs in) and always receive a smiling child back. The babies section always had a higher ratio of staff to children, and I never saw a crying child being left without attention, even at busy times like lunchtime (when they were fed in highchairs in shifts by one or two members of staff with the others keeping the rest happy.

Have you asked re vouchers - I presume you mean the ones that you can get part of your pay in vouchers? My company pays money directly to the nursery - and my colleague has similar arrangement with childminder - this instead of having any actual vouchers. If you mean the same type of vouchers, is there any way you could ask for this arrangement rather than the actual vouchers?

Re nursery v. childminder - I'm sure that there are good ones and bad ones of both - my colleague has recently had to remove her dd from a childminder who she discovered had been fixing the baby seat in forward facing - this being the last straw. She clearly picked a bad one - like the nurseries that you used and were trying out - but there are good ones of both out there. (and all you cms out there - I know you're reading this - I have a very good friend who is also a cm, and I know that there are a lot of good cm, its just that my collegue didn't find one of you!)

my dd is due to start nursery in 7 weeks and i must admit i am feeling very apprehensive about the whole thing. However I am starting settling-in sessions in a few weeks and i can go as often as i want over a 2 week period. I am sure if there is anything that is of concern i will hopefully pick up on it during that period. with no family near to us and the cost of living these days childcare is a daunting reality for most mothers. All we can do is talk to people, read ofstead reports, use settling in sessions and obviously gauge your childs mood and behaviour. If things are not right then go back to the drawing board and look at other options.

UPDATE (bit of a rant)!

Oh My God! I spoke to the nursery in question this morning to voice my concerns and explain that I would not be sending DD there.

The manager disputed everything I said, just constantly saying 'no, no, no' to everything I said (might I add that I remained calm and polite throughout). She said I had obviously miscounted the number of babies that 8:2 would never happen. I maintained my position and she then said that OK maybe one had been put in the baby room when they should be with the toddlers. Then she said that the 8th baby was my DD that she had squeezed in to do me a favour before she had time to add any other staff and that seeing as she was only trying to do a good turn for me that I had no right to complain Believe me, if she had told be that she would be squeezing DD in and not maintainging the staff ratio then i would have rearranged the session!

I also mentioned the feeding of babies in car seats (I know some of you think that this is OK but I think that feeding a child in a semi-reclined position is dangerous) and she said that they only do it when babies can't sit up (they were all over 12 months!!) and never with food just with bottle. I told her it was porridge and pasta from a dish and she said I was wrong but then said that if that is how parents want the baby fed then that is what they do.

She then went on and on about how I have really messed up because there is no way I will find good childcare in my area (she may be right) and started naming nurseries in my area and saying how she would never send her kids there. She was basically laughing and saying good luck to you over and over as I was trying to end the call.

I am so angry and feel sad for the babies in that place - how often are extra babies 'squeezed in' for trial sessions?

I am extremely glad that DD is not going to be sent to that place now but should I leave it at that or should I report what I saw? I am mad enough to blooming well report that horrid witch of a woman

Jorange, I am totally appalled at your post. This has only confirmed your thoughts / our fears - what a dreadful nursery and what a horrible and unprofessional Manager she is.
I do hope that you are able to find an alternative and that you have peace about your decision.
And yes, I would take some notes, so as not to forget anything and then REPORT HER ASAP