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Nurseries

Find nursery advice from other Mumsnetters on our Nursery forum. For more guidance on early years development, sign up for Mumsnet Ages & Stages emails.

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Original poster

Is it U to expect nursery workers to do training on a Sat - for free?

44 replies

MerryMarigold · 13/09/2019 08:12

Not putting this in employment as I know everyone will say it is VU and I am more interested in a direct comparison with other nurseries.

My workplace have organised training from 10-3 tomorrow. It has not presented as optional, but it is not paid, or TOIL. This is because it is 'for our benefit'. The training is on the new EYFS framework and is being delivered by an OFSTED inspector. However, the main reason it has been organised is that we have been reported to OFSTED recently and they are worried about an inspection imminently. The nursery has been inspected yearly for at least 5 years and we finally received a 'good' on the last inspection so they were hoping for a break, till this incident was reported.

They see it as they are paying for the training and all we have to do is give up most of our Saturday. I see it as compulsory training at the weekend which is not even being offered with TOIL.

Is this normal? Is it reasonable? Is it legal? (Although there is nothing in writing to say it's compulsory, it would definitely go against you not to turn up and they would find a different reason for a disciplinary). How annoyed should I be? I am seriously considering leaving, but I have very good hours which is the only reason I am there.

OP posts:

ConstanzaAndSalieri · 14/09/2019 06:19

Why are you still there? Round here there is a massive shortage of trained staff. If you don’t like it, move

donquixotedelamancha · 14/09/2019 06:37

Is this normal? Is it reasonable? Is it legal?

No to all three. I have worked for places which behave like this when young, as I got older I realised they only get away with stuff if we let them.

I might do it if it looked good for my CV and they are giving you the time back on Tuesday. I would never work unpaid. I would not let an employer shout at me.

Don't just quit. Write down everything they do and join a union, then get their advice.

MistyGlen · 14/09/2019 06:55

What they are doing is in violation of minimum wage laws and they need reporting to HMRC. If it’s compulsory they have to pay you.

icecreamsundae32 · 14/09/2019 07:02

I worked in a preschool for 5 years and yes our 12hour paediatric first aid courses were spread over 2 saturdays so yey two Saturdays taken up and unpaid. Often cpd and child protection courses were in the evenings too. Occasionally if they could get cover we could go on a course during work hours and we got paid then lol. We did get paid for our staff meetings and planning meetings tho which fell out of work hours.

emilybrontescorsett · 14/09/2019 07:09

I would look for another job.
I would also consider a change of career.
You would be better off working at Aldi for example.
It is sad that women feel beholden to getting jobs with school hours, this limits your earning potential.
Your boss sounds horrendous.
Fwiw my sister has worked for many years as a TA in a primary school. She has always been expected to ' 'read up' on essential policies etc in her own time.
She has handed in her notice as she has finally had enough.

Crystal87 · 14/09/2019 07:10

I used to work in a nursery and had this type of bullshit all the time. I just told them that I would be bringing my children to the training and they soon called it off.
The same nursery also sent us on training the day before Christmas Eve a 4 hour coach ride away, in deep snow.

Tonnerre · 14/09/2019 07:10

Will it help you for job-hunting purposes to be able to say you've done this training?

Crystal87 · 14/09/2019 07:13

And they also sent me on training miles away on my last day before maternity leave, with the idea I'd go back and put it all into practice and teach to the other staff. I never went back after mat leave. I would never work in any nursery again, I think they are all similar.

FenellaMaxwell · 14/09/2019 07:13

Absolutely not - our nursery did it as an inset day and used the rest of the day for staff development.

Original poster

MerryMarigold · 14/09/2019 08:57

Will it help you for job-hunting purposes to be able to say you've done this training?

I suppose so a little bit if I go for a job in this field, in the same way that doing the daily work you do is helpful. As long as you can talk about it or show how the knowledge is applicable to you. I am not sure it would add hugely if they didn't like you in all the other ways. It's not like having first aid or, say, specific training in special needs.

OP posts:

Original poster

MerryMarigold · 14/09/2019 09:02

No to all three. I have worked for places which behave like this when young, as I got older I realised they only get away with stuff if we let them.

I agree. I am 46. I am too old to be treated like this! I feel for the other staff, I really do (some are older than me), but nobody puts their foot down as they will get bullied out. I've been there a year and seen at least 2 cases brought (there may be others I am not aware of). They are not making money as they are fighting legal cases, but I personally would not do that as their lawyers are ruthless and I don't want to spend more money on fighting them just to prove a point. I'd rather leave them to fail ofsted again.

OP posts:

itsaboojum · 14/09/2019 10:08

MaverickSnoopy

To be clear, I have ever suggested that "all nurseries are on the cusp of going out of business." And yes, you are correct to say that some are doing well and that nursery staff frequently get a bad deal.

The fact is, research conducted just before the 30 funded hours scheme was introduced indicated that 49% of U.K. nurseries were operating at or below break even. Since then, most nurseries report that funded hours have further undermined their financial viability; that costs have risen significantly; and families are extremely resistant to the necessary fee increases. School/local authority establishments and so-called "charitable" nurseries enjoy a certain degree of protection from the economic climate. Take all these facts together and it’s clear that the privately run provisions, on the whole, are in dire straits.

The existence of a few exceptional examples does not change the reality for the industry as a whole. The trouble is that these few exceptions keep being rolled out on message boards and the media because it suits some parents to promote the myth that’s they are being ripped off by childcare providers who are raking it in off the backs of hard working families.

But if this continues, it won’t be very long before there’ll be hardly any childcare left for future mums.

pandaeyez · 14/09/2019 11:10

When I worked in a nursery we were always expected to attend training courses on a Saturday however we were always paid so it was never an issue. It was also the same with staff meetings, normally after work on a weekday but we would still be paid for it.

I don't think they can actually enforce it if their not paying you so I would just say you have other plans that prevent you from attending.

chamchick26 · 15/09/2019 07:13

Not all nurseries are bad but yours does sound poorly run. A good nursery values staff as its their biggest resource. Occasionally we have had Saturday training and have had always been paid for it. The new EIF is important for staff to be aware of because the inspection will now involve much more about inspector talking to and observing staff. If you're employers don't put anything in writing that's quite concerning because obviously they don't follow any good employment practice but then this also means you don't have to do anything you don't want to as there can be no repucussion. My advice from working in this sector........... Run for the hills, there is so much better out there

Original poster

MerryMarigold · 15/09/2019 07:35

Thank you all. The training was good and very insightful. I'm glad I went although it really upset my whole weekend and was exhausting mentally! I'm preparing to hand in my notice.

OP posts:

CeeceeBloomingdale · 15/09/2019 07:46

It's for the benefit of the company, not your personal benefit. I'd therefore expect to be paid or time off in lieu given.

stripes416 · 16/09/2019 11:49

I've worked in nurseries for years and unfortunately I've never worked in a nursery who have paid for staff meetings or training. I've always had to do staff meetings after work so I'll start at 7.30am and then have to stay in work until around 8.00 in the evening or later and will not be paid for the meeting or the time I've had to just stay in work because it's not worth driving home to just drive back again. This is one of the reasons I am wanting to get out of working in childcare

Tumbleweed101 · 16/09/2019 22:23

You can learn what you need from online resources.

Training should be paid - or TOIL - assuming you’re not on annualised hours etc (at which point you should have the training hours deducted from your yearly hours).

Fandabydosey · 17/09/2019 23:24

We used to attend staff meeting unpaid, it only took one brave member of staff to say you can't legally make me and another to point out that, if you are being paid minimum wage and your contracted hours are say 35 hours per week for example. If you are then expected to do an extra 5 hours unpaid your salary will drop below minimum wage which is illegal. It very much depends on what your contract says. It is not uncommon that this happens. However in this profession we are generally passionate and caring, this is very often exploited

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