At my wits’ end

[cbr333]

My 8 y o daughter is still awake for the third night in a row. We try everything for a regular night’s sleep and her 4 y o sister is like clockwork, asleep at 7pm. Older daughter has proper home cooked and balanced meals, bath, story, some time to read by herself but she is just so anxious, constantly coming downstairs and can’t sleep. We have tried everything in the past, and I can say with certainty that showing irritation etc makes it worse. She thinks we hate her and that she’s terrible and will never get to sleep. I just need some advise on how to help her. She can’t say what it worrying her, just that she can’t sleep. Is there a professional I can speak to?

Can she sit with you until she’s tired? Read in her room? Watch something on an iPad in her room? Later bed time?

id explore the above before a professional. Like everything else with kids - this will be a phase. I know that’s supremely unhelpful right now but it’s true

Could she fall asleep with an audiobook on?

Do you mean she actually hasn't slept in the last 60+ hours? If so take her to A&E.

If she does fall asleep eventually keep trying to reassure her, and make a GP appointment.

@BertieBottsbad English, sorry! She has slept! But normally around 11.30ish and then is grey and exhausted during the day.

she has a tonie box and listens to that (normal stories as well as some mindfulness ones and other calming ones).

I’ve tried sitting with her and talking through worries, tried talking about the good things that happened that day, letting her keep the light on to read, letting her fall asleep in my bed. No stone left unturned by this point.

shes been super active this half term (my pedometer around 10k steps her day so she must be on similar), but it hasn’t helped.

Can you not lay with her. Just be relaxed and calm and I’m sure she will drift off eventually. Get some lavender sleep sprays to see if they help

Does she get enough fresh air and exercise?

Lie in bed with her until she goes to sleep? Co-sleep to break the cycle? My 7 year old has sleep issues and takes melatonin, also incredibly anxious. We do whatever gets the most sleep in this house.

If you've eliminated all the obvious things like hunger/enough exercise/warm enough etc then is it just anxiety? You could try "worry dolls". My daughter had them; I think they were marketed as Peruvian (?! It was a while ago!) and they are tiny little doll that come in a small bag. You out them under your pillow and they carry away your worries/bad thoughts etc. Worth a go?

@Maybeitllneverhappenwe have those! so lovely but not working for her.

i worry lying next to her is more problematic in the long-run? I will often sit just outside her door so she knows I’m super close, and she shares a room with her sister so it isn’t a lack of company or comfort.

What about a weighted blanket OP? My DS has a racing mind and that seems to help.

@MsSmartShoesshe does! Swimming, netball, acti r weekends including junior parkrun a couple of times
each month on average.

@littlecreeatureis that prescribed? Has it worked for your family?

@MeandBobbyMcGooooooh, not tried that! How does it help?

Obviously it’s important to get to the bottom of what’s keeping her awake first but if she just doesn’t “feel tired” then you could research Melatonin. You can buy Melatonin online or if you ever go on holiday abroad you can pick it up over there. I get it from Supermarkets in France or pharmacies in Spain. GPs won’t/cant prescribe it so you need an ADHD diagnosis and a psychiatrist to get it in the UK. My daughter has ADHD and Melatonin has been a total game changer for her.

Just lie with her if it works. She's a child, she needs comfort.

I’ve heard this can help kids relax and sleep better, though I’ve no personal experience:
https://thecalmnesscrew.com/?srsltid=AfmBOortHEmJim7IQ-zCoLsofldPJsJcBjJ09Kefk18lVxrmpzp_WOmW

@Peonies12I did that for a long time but it seemed to actually keep her awake more! She then was chatty etc. I said we need to lie quietly etc but sitting just outside the door worked slightly better for us as she knew I was close but it wasn’t such a distraction.

She fell asleep eventually at midnight with me in bed next to her but that’s not a solution that will work long term - I need to cook, clean, have some sort of a life after bedtime and I don’t actually think it’s healthy for DD either to need that sort of contact long term as she is 8. I do need to teach her somehow to be able to fall asleep by herself.

Melatonin - ship from America.
weighted blanket.
V shaped cushion - feels like someone is lying next to you.
do you have a cat or a dog? Other things that breath in the room can help co-regulate breathing.

Please don’t buy random melatonin off the internet. Make a GPs appointment and explain her problems. Whilst doctors don’t like prescribing melatonin, they can and do. I know others without ADHD (my son included). Your GP should refer your daughter to a paediatrician, who can arrange a sleep study, if needed. Or they may get to the bottom of her anxiety.

She could try focussing her mind on something else. For instance, ask her to go through the alphabet (in her head) thinking of animals or fruit and veg. Eg, antelope, bat, cat, dog or apple, banana, carrot, date. She could do it with boys or girls names etc.

Try tapping therapy, when my daughter was anxious we used to do it and we’d all fall asleep!
There is an App called the tapping solution we use? You can probably find stuff on You Tube as well.

My friend uses YouTube and finds kids hypnotherapy videos she says they work 90% of the time. Also the calm app does a free trial and has children’s wind down and bedtime stories.

As pp said tapping might help, you can get something called tappy bear with all the points so if she doesn’t want to tap on herself she can use the bear.

Dc10 has brown noise and usually a fan on. It's what helps her quieten everything so.she can sleep. I also come back in 15, then 20, then 30 mins. If she knows I'm coming back she settles better.

This is what I would do.

Make a note of all the sleep hygiene things you've tried already (avoiding screens too close to bed, same routine each day, bedtime wind down, exercise/fresh air during day)

Make a GP appointment and explain difficulty falling asleep and is getting in the way of everyday life/a worry for school etc. Explain the sleep hygiene stuff you're already doing. See if they can suggest anything. Ask for a follow up - try their suggestion/wait and see if it improves for how long? Make another appointment after that amount of time if nothing changes, or if it gets worse.

If there's something that works, but it's impractical, you might be able to use that as a starting point - Lyndsey Hookway has a great book called Still Awake which is about older children who still don't sleep well (rather than the usual focus on babies/toddlers) and she has an approach where you change one thing at a time, so for example if she needs your presence to fall asleep then you might be able to start off doing this in order to establish a routine where she sleeps, and then over time reduce your presence or change how your presence is. Obviously lying with her for 4 hours every evening is not sustainable. But if you are avoiding going in because you don't want to create a bad habit, it might be counterproductive because it could be that you can use it as a sort of bridge to get to where you want to be.

I think she explains the concept of one step at a time here although it's harder to read here than in the book. lyndseyhookway.com/2019/08/29/sleep-one-step-at-a-time/

I would also recommend melatonin. You can try your GP, some do prescribe, but as mentioned by a PP ours insisted on going via CAMHS for this. We couldn’t wait that long. Bought it online. Game changer.

I did buy from Piping Rock but they have stopped shipping to UK. Now use Biovea.