Second instrument

[Pip290]

DD is in Year 3 and currently Grade 1 piano. She practises daily of her own accord and clearly loves it.

She has started asking about a second instrument. When is a sensible time to introduce one?

At the moment she is leaning towards the violin, which I admit I greet with mild dread given the well known “several years before it stops sounding like a distressed seagull” phase. That said, she likes that it works for both classical music, especially as friends play in the orchestra, and also for jigs and sea shanties, which for reasons known only to her appeal. She has also said she likes the cello, which I personally think is beautiful (although a friend said that can sound like a dying whale for a year or two).

Should I gently steer her towards the cello, or let her try the violin if that is what she truly wants, and if a second instrument is reasonable, when is a good time to start?
My slight worry is time and energy. Prep is already a step up and she does get tired. I am unsure how realistic practising two instruments alongside sport and everything else will be.

Alternatively, should she simply stick with the piano for now, given she genuinely loves it and it is wonderfully versatile, covering everything from classical to jazz to Disney and musical theatre.

@NobodysChildNow That’s so English. Why oh why do we sit through these technically brilliant kids I just want to hear something a bit duff. 😄

@Aluna there is something just so charming watching kids struggle on their complicated oversized instruments!

Violin prodigies are so overdone. 😆

If you want to consider flexibility and the likelihood of sticking with a lifelong instrument, then I would say brass or woodwind (clarinet or sax) are a better bet: there are far more opportunities for a brass player to keep going with their instrument after the school years. The only string players I know who have kept it up in adult life are ones who have made a career of it. Loads of brass players carry on playing casually as adults in brass and concert bands, jam nights, open mics etc.

@Pip290 - most of DD2s opportunities came on viola - they are usually in short supply. As a young grade 5 violinist she did get opportunities but having switched to viola over the course of a year she then was inundated with people wanting a Grade 6 violist. Harpists are less in demand in ensemble work as there is less orchestral repertoire requiring one so it tended to be seen as an extra special add on to her viola and singing. It might initially take her slightly longer to get going than violin as the viola uses a different clef but DD picked it up very quickly.

I'm inclined to agree with @NobodysChildNow about the influx of rigidly overpractised violin "prodigies". They can make music festivals deathly dull as they give a technically accurate but musically deficient performance of pieces that are way beyond their emotional abilities. I have noticed that there is a bit of a backlash amongst adjudicators in recent years - I guess it is a dull for them as it is for the rest of us.

I’m not sure how we’re defining “prodigy”, in my book a prodigy would be excellent at both technique and expression.

I’ve certainly heard far more musically deficient performances that are also technically deficient.

I used to play the viola (and regret getting rid of it now). It's more portable than a cello and in my opinion has a nicer tone than a violin, especially with a beginner or not very good player. The main downsides are that there isn't as much solo music for it and you need to learn to read the alto clef, but if she already plays the piano then she knows two clefs and understands how they affect the position of the notes on the stave, which should make that a bit easier.

I don't think I've ever personally met a person who started out on the viola without having played the violin for a while first, but there's no logical reason why someone couldn't. Even if she's smallish, violas come in several different sizes and younger children sometimes learn on a violin strung as a viola.

Before we finalise any decisions can anyone advise on how much a good cello and violin
cost? An instrument that would take a student beyond grade 8 if they end up being keen. One mumsnet post said £10000 for a cello…. I don’t want to ignite a passion if we then can’t afford the instrument down the line for the higher grades. Honest answers much appreciated!

It just depends what you want. It’s like asking how
much it would cost to buy a meal or a day out or a car.

DS currently rents his cello from the local authority. It’s an absolute bargain at £45 a term. We’re considering buying one, but wouldn’t spend more than £1000.

He is playing G7 pieces and might take G8 one day.
He plays in local groups, but is not interested in auditioning for the county youth orchestra or studying Music beyond GCSE.

If it was going to form part of his career, we would probably look at spending more. He played on a cheap half and then a 3/4 size perfectly well through Gs1-5.

Maybe consider the viola, which has a nicer sound in a beginner's hands than the violin (imo!) and a good option if you're swinging between violin and cello. Also it is a shortfall instrument so will be easier to get into orchestras with it.

We spent just under £3k for a very good viola (including a good case and bow)

I fully appreciate there is going to be quite a range, but want a rough idea of what this would be for grade 8 level/local orchestras etc. If DD puts in the work to get to that level we would want an instrument with a lovely sound that’s nice to play. If I know from the start it’s going to be out of our price range I can redirect interests accordingly, or start a saving plan now. Forewarned is forearmed!

You would absolutely get a lovely cello for less than £10k. Especially if you look secondhand. Stringers does a 'solo' outfit for less than £3k. I'm pretty sure my friend's child did grade 8 on this and is playing in uni orchestra. If you buy through school you can claim vat back. Plenty of children will be playing on models les good than this , some on hugely more. Just do what suits you and your child. You can always trade up later.

@horseymum thank you! This is really reassuring. When I saw that post about a good instrument now being around £10k it worried me. I would really struggle to navigate a conversation down the line where I had to say, sorry we can’t afford the instrument you need for grade 8 despite all your hard work. I would either have to start saving now or encourage a violin/viola where 3k seems to get you something really very good. DD liked both instruments in her trial but really loved the cello and cello teacher. She could be swayed though and would understand the cost element much better now vs 8 -10 yrs down the line after a decade of hard work. If the honest answer is yes a good cello for grade 8/ school and local orchestras is more I would rather know now.

Realistically to get to grade 8 on the violin or cello at 18 she’d need to be doing 1-2 hours practice a day. She might start with 45-60 mins aged 8-10 and then increase to 1-1.5 hours. From 15 she’d be going up to 1.5-2 hrs. But where would that leave the piano? The same practice requirements apply. And sport? And homework?

I appreciate you’re taking this seriously but there’s no point doing due diligence on the costs of a cello unless you’re sure that she is up for the above. 80-90% of people who start instruments abandon it within the first year.

Right now I would be focusing on - how are you going to make 2 instrument lessons + practice work logistically over the next few years. Because if that doesn’t work out the rest is irrelevant.

Plenty of children manage two instruments, sport, friends, homework etc and don't do 2 hours a day on each instrument. Quality of practice is more important than raw quantity. Yes, there will be kids doing four hours a day but you can have fun and make progress on less. Don't worry about something that is a few years down the line. Enjoy the opportunity and be open to where it will lead.

Of course they do, with widely varying degrees of success. What I am saying is that if OP wants to get her DD to grade 8 this is what may be required. Practice requires both quantity and quality. Grade 8 isn’t that advanced in any case, after that you do a diploma.

If she wants her to play for enjoyment on say 30 mins a day each - which is absolutely fine - then talk of expensive instruments and grade 8 may not be relevant.

I have a cello with a lovely tone - cost £1500 10 years ago, prob double that now (based on recent prices of cellos I’ve tried). The music shop told me that stringed instruments tend to appreciate in value so that young professionals often buy the most expensive instrument they can then sell it when they retire to provide a pension. But that may have been a sales technique!

And it’s never too late to learn. I started the oboe at 57 and am hoping to pass grade 8 by the time I’m 65 :).

I don’t mind if she keeps one, both, or neither instrument to Grade 8 level. I stopped at Grade 5 piano, but kept up the oboe and played in the Kent County Youth Orchestra. I was pretty good, but not exceptional. I did not practice for 2hrs a day. I juggled sport and school work just fine, and played in various groups at uni. I dropped the piano as I could play most of the things I wanted to play, and still play now for pleasure, whether that is popular music or Christmas carols at Christmas. I kept the oboe going because I did it with my friends, and it was sociable and most importantly fun being part of orchestras!

I am fully aware she may decide within a year that it is not for her, and that is absolutely fine too.

Now, if DC does the same, it seems perfectly reasonable to want to know if I can afford the instrument in the long run. I’m not trading my piano, as DS and I both play even if just for pleasure. I appreciate some people can just wait and see if they can afford these very expensive things later on, and can pull it off with a few budget tweaks, but those are not the financial circumstances for many families.

You are right that, in the immediate term, I worry about juggling it with HW and sport, as lights out is 7.30 (mostly). However, it seems madness to go through all of that if it is a non starter, or if she ends up deciding to drop the piano, pursue the cello, and I can’t afford one.

@Oldblower thank you! That’s very helpful and reassuring.

I think people worry about time but as they get older, they stay up a bit later too. We found trying to have the habit of doing a bit each day meant it was easier to extend the time later on as it was already a ( mostly) daily habits. (I do not stick to this personally, my children are far more disciplined than me!)

@Pip290 And that level is absolutely fine - but why are you worrying about 10k cellos? To play to grade 8 + local youth orchestra standard you’re looking at 3-5k.

I think you’re misunderstanding me I’m not saying anyone needs to practice for 2 hours a day, simply that playing to a level that requires an expensive instrument usually goes along with that level of seriousness and commitment.

Thee is absolutely no need to spend £10k on a cello.

We spent about £500 on my daughter’s violin (many years ago but I see the current price is still under £1k) and it was perfectly adequate for her grade 8. The equivalent cellos are about £2-2.5k.

I’d disagree with @Aluna about practice requirements. I don’t think either of my children ever did more than 1hr a day on just one instrument. It was a good day if they did that in total.

Obviously anyone who wants to be a professional
player will need to do more, but most children (and their parents) aren’t hoping to do that.

@Aluna There is another Mumsnet post that said £3k to £5k minimum, but closer to £10k for those working towards Grade 8 and beyond. I was trying to work out whether this was just a very lucky person, or whether it has become more of the norm for Grade 7 and 8 + players, and those taking part in local youth/school/university orchestras.

Most people say you can get a very good violin from under £1k to £3k, which would be more than appropriate for this level, and that would be a huge plus. However, it is reassuring to read on here, from other posts, that you can in fact get a very good cello for anywhere between £2k and £5k second hand that would be appropriate for this level too. That is doable with a bit of planning and savkng. £10k is not.

A big appeal of taking up a string instrument for DD is the social element of orchestras. I want to be able to facilitate this in her instrument of choice if she keeps it up. I made some of my closest and longest lasting friends through music (I even met my husband through one of these friends). If it really is out of our reach, and she is not 100 per cent set on cello and would be happy with the violin, that is worth factoring in. Surely it is better to find out now before investing not only all that money in lessons, but also DD’s time.