Live webchat with Richard Dawkins, Wed 23 June, 10am-11am

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're pleased to welcome Richard Dawkins for a webchat on Wednesday 23 June from 10am-11am. Richard is a celebrated evolutionary biologist and atheist, and author of the best-selling God Delusion.

He has presented programmes on Channel Four that range from enthusing about the Genius of Charles Darwin to arguing against religion in Root of All Evil?

His latest project is taking a long hard look at education and the role religion continues to play in it.

He wants to hear first-hand from Mumsnetters what faith and church schools are really like. How successful are they? Are they selection by another means? Are they divisive? And are they making hypocrites out of non-believing parents who go to church just to send their children to them?

If you can't make the discussion but want to contribute, please post your views here.

Thanks and hope you can join us.

In answer to the question of why faith schools seem to perform better than non-faith schools, while it may be that the structure that religion brings has a positive effect on children's behaviour and ability to learn effectively, I would say it is largely socio-economic and a result of the admissions policies that voluntary aided schools are allowed to operate. In urban areas of high social deprivation, faith schools usually demand a long period of church attendance as well as baptism. This automatically excludes most children from the most chaotic and disconnected background. It is perfectly clear if you compare stats for free school meals etc in neighbouring faith and community schools.

Yes, you do inform children to an extent with your own views when you answer their questions Zephirine -this is why it is important that they mix with other children and adults so that they appreciate that we live in a culture with people with different cultural and religious beliefs and agendas.

Here we go again.

the Church of England would fall apart if it really discriminated against homosexuals as would the Catholic church. Do you not realise that huge numbers of Catholic and Cof E priests, admin staff, congregation, are gay? And everyone knows it. The reason the CofE church won't openly endorse it as it does not want to alienate the Anglican church in Africa and other developing countries. can you not see the difficult position they are in?

Surely ALL state funded schools should be secular? - I really cannot understand state funded catholic schools, or the requirement for a "collective act of worship". Schools should be about education, learning about religions is very important, being immersed in them in school is wrong. How can the government possibly justify paying out money for schools which discriminate (even a non-religious state school still has the collective worship requirement)

Sorry my last point had a bit of a non-sequitur. I had a distracting baby on my knee. I meant that schools need money, and it is faith schools have traditionally been linked with the money.

Not a question, just to say quickly how much I admire your work Prof Dawkins, I especially love 'The God Delusion'

re your opening statement (I wasn't here, apologies), the reality is that some parents have choices - to buy a house next to a good school, to send their children private, or even to emigrate.

And some don't have any of those options, and are stuck in the ghetto facing a school filled with drugs and knives.

The world is not particularly fair, you have to take your opportunities. You talk about religion being irrational, but what IMO is more irrational is getting hung up over church schools at the expense of a decent education. The church is really not that objectionable.

Yes, Tiktok I would LOVE to have classes in critical thinking. If only all schools taught that, and gave it high priority. Critical, evidence-based thinking. Wonderful thought. Don't teach religion, don't teach atheism. Teach critical thinking.

Petition sounds like a great idea. I'm sure the NSS and BHA could go some way to rustling up 100,000 signatures.

Christianity = morality maddens me. When I hear people say 'oh how Christian of you' if I do something helpful I just want to scream NO IT'S NOT. I don't know where people have gotten this idea from to be honest. Some people act like atheists are all hedonistic idiots without a care for anyone else.

The way religion is fair game for discussion but atheism isn't is also massively frustrating. Some of the comments on this thread which make repeat these views about the arrogance of atheism are case in point, I think. It boils down to why believe something if you have no reason to? Reason.

Before you go thanks for coming on here Richard it's been great having you. You are a real inspiration, so thank you. And please do think about setting up that school!

I don't agree that faith schools are more successful based on the morals they teach. In Scotland there is only the occasional Catholic school to represent the faith branch and they do not perform better than their most equivalent (mainly in a socio-economic sense) secular counterparts.

I am an Atheist, raised by Atheists. Although my school was supposedly secular, the Head and several teacher were Christians (two of them born-Again). My parents ensured that we were brought up in an environment of comparative religion. I became an Atheist myself at 10 because not only did the idea of any deity seem ridiculous and impossible, I found the majority of the Christian morality I was being taught offensive and actively IMmoral. Teaching children to be racist, sexist, homophobic and just as damaging, to be unquestioning, to be subservient and to never think independently, perceptively, rationally and logically.

Faith does not create morality, it simply does not. In fact, the very idea is supremely offensive - does this mean that we are all appalling psychopaths unless we follow the irrelevant words of some fairy stories and propaganda from 1000s of years ago? RIDICULOUS!

It is very interesting what you say about faith schools being divisive.

I live in Gloucester. I already had to make teh choice to send my daughter to a poorly performing school (where it has actually proved that the league tables are meaningless, it is a cracking school and she is thriving) because the only alternatives were single sex grammars (I don't approve of single sex schools) or the Catholic one. I could have got her a place at the catholic school - they had x amount of places for non-catholics - but then i would have had to support their ethos. No way.

Worryingly, there is a newly opened Islamic school for girls. there is a large minority of islamic families in Gloucester, formerly they would have attended one of the 9 schools in the city. Now the vast majority go to the Islamic school. There are no muslim girls in my daughters school. There are now far fewer who go to the girls grammars that there used to be. This worries me - how are we supposed to 'get on' as a society if we are seperating children like this.

I laughed at the poster above who said that the God delusion led to her having a 'road to Damascus' moment - I felt absolutely the same so thanks Professor Dawkins for that fabulous book, and all your others. They really did open my mind to the possibility that atheism, and questioning religion, is not something to feel ashamed of.

I think if you all get rid of church schools you will find something else to get outraged about, and secretly mourn the loss of such great schools actually.

Could it be that faith schools have more money, access to resources and parents who lie through their teeth to get their children in to the school in the first place?

Or it could be that the parents and children at a faith school are already very used to following the rules and regulations of their religions that school discipline comes easy!

Or because they can cherry pick who they want in the school in the selection process.

Just a few thoughts.

I know of one school in Devon, Colyton Grammar, where every pupil takes an AS in critical thinking. Article here.

Damn, a min too late!

Critical Thinking AS Level sounds like a soft option to me... General Studies anybody?

I don't know why 'atheism' is such a dirty word.

It means a lack of faith. Literally, 'without gods'.

I don't attack churches or their attendees. I just don't believe in a god.

Yes Poface. But if they were to admit to that in a job interview, they school would be perfectly within their rights to exclude them from employment. This right has been questioned, yet the COE insists on keeping it.

I agree, many COE schools are happy inclusive places where homosexuals and athiests flourish. But the fact remains, the school has the right to exclude people on these grounds. What happens in practise is many people end up going underground.

I taught many students who insisted they had never met a gay person in their life. The fact was they had. Many of their teachers were gay. they simply could not admit to it without risking their jobs. And until COE schoos are forced to comply with the same employment legislation as the rest of society then you have to admit that they may create an atmosphere where people are not able to be who they are and children are shown a false picture of society.

If we teach the bible as a literary work surely we also have to teach the other holy books as they too have influenced the literature and culture of many of our communities?

I've toyed with buying a bible story book for my daughter - (DP won't agree!) - simply because I think that some of the stories are very good.

I agree with you spacehoppa, but religion is not going to stop you doing that.

Faith schools that give priority on religious grounds do divide in this way, which is why the current exemption from regular LEA admissions rules for voluntary aided schools are wrong. That does not make the faith wrong, just the rules on admissions.

Tombliboob

sigh - both those schools are STATE schools. but one of them the state runs on (more) secular lines, in the other the state has ceded a certain amount of control to the local church.

we all pay for it... the church runs it on faith lines. that's the problem.

Richard, I did not express myself very well (trying to type quickly) but when I said fundamentalism I meant the type of thinking that does not allow for any other opinions and is rude or dismissive of these.

I love your idea of free-thinking schools as that is what is needed: the opportunity to discuss and analyse anything and everything that a (young)person may feel like questioning.