Webchat with Caroline Criado Perez on her new book, Invisible Women - on Tuesday 30 April at 12.30pm

[NiamhMumsnet]

Hello

Caroline Criado Perez will be joining us for a live webchat on Tuesday 30 April at 12.30pm, to discuss her latest book: Invisible Women - Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men.

Invisible Women looks at government policy and medical research, technology, workplaces, urban planning and the media - and aims to show that biased data excludes women.

Why are mobile phones the size of an average man’s hand and not a woman’s? Why are ‘female’ crash test dummies usually tested in the passenger and not the driver’s seat? Why are typically female presentations of a heart attack systems considered atypical?

She describes the impact that living in a world where the default human is considered to be a man has on women’s health and wellbeing - and makes the case for change.

Caroline Criado Perez is a writer, broadcaster and public speaker. Her first book, Do It Like a Woman, was published in 2015. She is also an award-winning feminist campaigner - her campaigns include getting a woman on the Bank of England banknotes and campaigning for a statue of suffragist Millicent Fawcett to be erected in Parliament Square. As some of you will know from previous guest posts she has written for Mumsnet, she’s also involved in the campaign for a People’s Vote.

Please do join us on Tuesday if you’re around or leave a question on this thread in advance.

Please bear in mind our webchat guidelines (including one question each - follow ups allowed if there’s time). Also following recent chats/guest posts we’ve updated our guidelines to let people know that, if one topic is overwhelmingly dominating a discussion with a guest, mods might request that people don't continue to post what's effectively the same question or point. Rest assured we will ALWAYS let guests know that it's an area of concern to multiple users and will encourage them to engage with those questions.

Thanks
MNHQ

What's Poppy's favourite biscuit :-)

@Ullupullu

I read and enjoyed your book! Well done on so much research and the brilliant reception.

My question/comment is that in your section on working mothers, why didn't you consider perspectives from women who wanted to stay home and bring up their preschool aged kids and their lives not be limited by that (for instance, engaging with organisations like Mothers At Home Matter Too)?

For years, feminists have argued that care work at home should be recognised and maybe even renumerated, but this was not discussed in your chapters, only out-of-home childcare as a solution. I never thought I'd be 'one of those' mums but I am - and so much of the focus these days is on 100% full time employment for both parents being the goal of an enlightened society (including your perspective in your chapters), but we had children to spend lots of time with them. This is no disrespect to others choices - we use formal childcare part time owing to my work - but who better to look after kids than family? Lots of people's preference but not practical.

That's a really good point and my honest answer is that it didn't occur to me! My own data gap bias I guess... you're right though, part of restructuring society to value women's work more should absolutely look at how to better support mothers (and I very much hope fathers) who want to stay home and care for their children. I think the key, as in all areas of women's unpaid work, is to change it from being a woman thing to being equally likely to be a man or woman thing. If both men and women were eqaully likely to spend time at home with the kids this wouldn't be an issue int he same way -- and you can bet it would be a better supported choice! I've not come across the organisation you mention, but I will look into them!

@Womaninnit

Love the book. A real eye-opener. And hopefully a game-changer too.

My question regards our own view of ourselves as women. So many times on Mumsnet I've seen women asking if they are being unreasonable in asking for help with basic common ubiquitous female medical problems that they have been told they just have to 'grin and bear'. Aside from the really serious biases in research that you mention that can leave women dead, how to you think we can address this chronic background feeling that women's pain isn't something that needs addressing?

I'm talking about undiagnosed endometriosis, thyroid problems, menopause, fibroids, and just plain old 'painful periods' that there is no satisfactory solution to - and that are all life-altering and debilitating.

I think if a man was told that they would be in crippling pain for three or four days a month, and bleeding everywhere, that it would be classed as quite a significant and chronic life-altering illness; yet we meekly go away and get on with the pain because so many doctors dismiss it. I've even seen (multiple) women on here struggling to know what to do with daughters starting their periods and really struggling - and not knowing if they are 'allowed' to feel sympathy and anger - and hesitant as to whether to take the poor girl to the doctor, or to let them have a day off on their first period. How are we going to stop this?

That's such a difficult question, because it's not just about changing structures, it's about changing ourselves. I think the key is to be open and transparent about the pain we suffer. I hesitate as a non mum to say this on mumsnet, but I've become a bit of a proselytiser for talking openly about pregnancy, childbirth, and childcare, because until my friends started experiencing it, I had absolutely no idea. There is such a taboo on talking about any difficult experiences that women have and it makes it so much harder for women to seek help when they're suffering. Maybe an EverydaySexism for women's pain?!

@Womaninnit

What's Poppy's favourite biscuit :-)

cheeky second question! poppy likes whatever biscuit i happen to be eating at the time and turns her nose up at everything else. she's a diva just like her mum

@FlaviaAlbia

Do you ever daydream about throwing up your hands and founding a civilisation run by women?

Sometimes I think it's the only way

God yes. only issue is fancying men. as i often say, being straight is one of the great sadnesses of my life and proof that you don't choose your sexuality

@FloralBunting

Loved the book, recommend it to loads of people. Eye opening, frustrating and encouraging all at the same time. You're a lucid, engaging writer.

What are you planning to do next?

having a little sleep!

Can we expect a paperback version of the book Caroline?

@Cismyfatarse

I absolutely loved your book.

My question is about the limitations of the representation of women in Sport. There is an interesting thread on here about why the BBC, as a publicly funded broadcaster, should do more to represent women and girls in sport. Currently, the output is very poor across all the media I look at (Times, Guardian, BBC) but I wondered if there was any solution or are we all stuck with just football, rugby and the odd bit of golf (all played by men, of course)?

Should the BBC be required to show equality in their sport output?

interesting question! I think the first thing I want them to do along with all broadcasters is to stop framing men's sport as gender neutral. If you mean men's sport SAY MEN'S SPORT! And the answer is not to simply stop labelling women's sport as women's sport, because all the research shows that this would just make women's sport even more invisible. I think that if broadcasters had to say men's rugby, men's football etc every time they spoke about it, they would feel shamed into covering women's sport more without needing regulation. I think a huge part of the problem, in all areas, is how we allow male bias to hide under a veneer of supposed gender neutrality

Thanks Caroline.
I think (on here especially) there is a lot of talk about parenthood within parenting circles. Less so the debilitating effects of periods on young women (I didn't realise how debilitating until I got pregnant and they stopped!), and also less so on trauma like fibroids (the horror stories close friends have told me - having to run out of teaching a class because of flooding) and menopause.

A lot of this is because if we talk about them I think we may well fall into the trap of being seen as 'the weaker sex' again.....

@HumberElla

Thank you for writing this book Caroline!

My question is, which area do you think women could make the most difference in redressing the balance? I’m interested in taking action, but your book shows just how all pervasive sexism is. If there was one area (medicine? Product safety? Product design etc) where would you say there is most opportunity for significant change?

Hmm. Well arguably the most life or death area is medicine, although of course car design is also life or death! But honestly, I think all areas need challenging urgently. It feels overwhelming because it's a way of thinking that affects everything. But I dont' think it is overwhleming. It just requires people to focus ont he thing they personally are in a position to change. If you're a doctor or medical researcher, focus on medical data. If you're a product designer, focus on produce design. If you're a transport planner, etc. what is needed is for people in each field to take on the challenge in their field. Feminism is a movement and it requires millions of people working on the thing they have the power to change. we can't all do everything, but we can all do something 💪

@MrsSnippyPants

Can we expect a paperback version of the book Caroline?

yep! next year :)

@MoodLighting

^ Yes please plus any thoughts on how to raise feminist boys when our messages as mothers is diluted in every situation (as your book shows)?

Hmm the million dollar question. It is extremely hard because you are battling against pretty much every book, tv show, advert, not to mention the children at their primary school being brought up by parents who are telling their boys not to be such a girl, and of course some teachers, sadly. If you have time I think the best thing you can do is try to make sure the content they are exposed to at home is not driving home gender stereotypes, and question them if they say anything is "for girls" or "for boys" or if something is bad because it's girly. Talk to them about it -- the invisibility, the way this stuff is unquestioned and just naturalised is where it gets half its power. Fawcett is in fact launching a commission on this today that will be looking into how children have harmful gender stereotypes hammered into them from a young age, so...join fawcett?!

Hello.
Is there space for a project continuation, sort of like Everyday Sexism? Maybe a bit more curated, but still people finding gaps in the data that are important to them and getting them filled and then sharing it.

@Gentlemanwiththistledownhair

I also really enjoyed your book and read it with interest. I'm also an engineer, working in manufacturing so I had a professional interest in much of what you were saying.

However, much of the book was focussed on the problem, with the majority of the solutions being "get more women involved". I am a woman having previously worked in product design and I don't think it is that simple. Women often don't think of other women either. When designing, you mostly use a set of historic data (based on men), but it it often impossible to dig back into the data to find where it came from. This is because designers need numbers, ie tensile and compressive strengths not qualitative description. Historically, over stress has also been considered more dangerous than understress, hence men's data being used. This myth is starting to change, which will hopefully help the flow to more balanced data.

But, do you have any other ideas about how we can close the data gap?

Hello! I definitely don't think "add women and stir" is a panacea! The point about having more women in positions of leadership is that women are more likely to know what other women need, and the research makes this clear are less likely to forget that women exist. But of course, as I also say in the book, women are hampered by a lack of female specific data, and they can't magic that gap away. The point is that they are more likely to think to collect it and to notice that there is a gap! But the main takeaway from the book is simply: collect sex-disaggregated data, whether you are a man or a woman.

@AlphaMama

And second question (sorry!) if I may...

All the women I know are so excited about this book. But arguably, it's not women who need to read it as we know these injustices exist and that there's a problem. My male friends are all relatively open minded, modern men and yet none have even considered reading it until I've questioned why not. How can we encourage more of those who do need to read this book, both 'average Joes' and those in positions of power to make change to read it and take action?

tell them it's got boobs in it JUST MY LITTLE JOKE.

Serious answer, I did write this book partly with men in mind. It felt like the best way to explain sexism to someone who doesn't experience it. And it's not presenting it as the fault of individual men -- it's a problem that arises from a way of thinking that we are all guilty of.

@ehb102

Hello. Is there space for a project continuation, sort of like Everyday Sexism? Maybe a bit more curated, but still people finding gaps in the data that are important to them and getting them filled and then sharing it.

I think definitely! Someone has in fact set up a great twitter account called @Onlyinmen which is highlighting research that is presented as gender neutral but has in fact been done...only in men!

Thanks so much for all your questions! I'm sorry I didn't manage to answer them all (Poppy was being naughty at times trying to steal Justine's lunch 😱), but hopefully covered all the topics! Keep on being bloody difficult! 💪

We're going to close this webchat now. Huge thanks to Caroline for joining us and thanks also to everyone who joined the webchat with a question. We hope you enjoyed it.