Webchat with Liberty's Shami Chakrabarti, Wednesday 8 October, 1-2pm

[RachelMumsnet]

Shami Chakrabarti has been director of Liberty (The National Council for Civil Liberties) since September 2003. She's been described as 'Probably the most effective public affairs lobbyist of the past 20 years' by David Aaronovitch of The Times and 'The most dangerous woman in Britain' by the Sun, and has recently been in the news commenting on The Conservative Party's proposed changes to The Human Rights Act.

Shami's book 'On Liberty' was published last week. Drawing on her own work in high-profile campaigns, from privacy laws to anti-terror legislation, Shami sets out to show what she perceives to be the threats to our democratic institutions, and explains her stance that our rights are paramount in upholding democracy.

We're delighted that Shami is our guest on Mumsnet from 1-2pm on Wednesday, to answer your questions. If you're unable to join us at that time, do post a question in advance to Shami on this thread.

Hello, thanks for having me, as my mum taught me to say and I sometimes actually mean! Let's get started...

@scallopsrgreat

Shami, you must be so proud to have been declared 'dangerous' by that bastion of reasonableness and intelligent debate, The Sun . They say you are getting somewhere when your peaceful work is compared to actual killers/terrorists/warmongerers.

Anyway my question is, do you experience the harassment & threats (online or otherwise) that so often follow women who stick their neck out and dare to challenge the status quo? If so, how do you handle it?

P.S. Looking forward to reading your book!

Thanks, yes I dine out on that one, especially as the columnist (John Gaunt) who so named me is now bringing a case in the Court of European Rights to defend his freedom of speech (he was sacked from Talk Sport Radio).

I have had some abuse on and offline over the years; mostly its harmless and I've only ever called the police once, when I thought there was a real threat to my colleagues.

@PetulaGordino

What a marvellous person you are Shami and thanks to you and MN for organising the webchat. I'm looking forward to reading the book

I am enormously concerned about Conservative proposals to withdraw from the ECHR and scrap the HRA should they win the next general election

I wonder to what do you attribute public support in the UK (such as there is - I don't know exact stats) for these proposals?

My feeling is that much of it is media- and politician-driven, where we only tend to see widely-publicised uses of these laws (perfectly legitimately) which appear to benefit those felt to be less than perfectly behaved citizens, rather than understanding how they protect far more than that. I also think there is an enormous element of "othering" too

I would be very interested to hear your thoughts

Thanks so much for your support, and the book is the long answer to your question. The short answer is that there is a lot of political and media myth about the HRA, but I find that when you actually get the opportunity to explain it to people, they rather treasure the rights and freedoms contained. Most people love human rights - their own - it's other people's freedoms that are sometimes more of a problem...

@babybarrister

Dear Shami

You are a woman who is admired by many people and so I was wondering if you had any tips as to how to combine a successful professional life with your family life?

Baby Barrister

Good childcare; great colleagues; and not being too hard on yourself!

@PineapplePIeces

Are you becoming too much of a celebrity and do you think this detracts from your work? The white robed Olympic Ceremony appearance is one such example...

I think you are right that campaigners need to try and avoid the cult of the personality but the other side of the equation is the need to be seen and heard. I hope I get the balance about right and I have some great and irreverent young colleagues and a sarcastic 12 year-old to keep me in check.

@nicename

You are a strong and dedicated woman. A wonderful role model for our kids! I'm not always 100% with you but defend your right to speak out and challenge.

Question:
We Ilive in now of terrorism/home grow jihadists, How can we balance this fear and the right of free speech and travel, and monitoring?

Terrosists are nowadays very sophisticated in tech terms and educated to a level that they know the law inside out.

We are scared that men and women will return to the UK on their Briitish passports (so they are Brits, despite themselves). - they may harbour ill will, or may be emotionally/mentally damaged by what they have seen and/or done.

I will be buying your book!

Human rights provide a framework for debate, not magic solutions or a computer programme. One important principle is to try and prevent more terrorists than you recruit with policies that can feel divisive, discriminatory and alienating to minorities whose support and solidarity is so important. Most human rights can be limited when it's necessary, proportionate and in accordance with legal safeguards, but knee-jerk blanket powers are always the most dangerous.

@trufflehunterthebadger

From discussions with friends and family, most people seem to have bought into the "human rights for paedophiles and murderers" myth and don't seem to understand how the human rights act has made a difference to our everyday lives. How can pro-ECHR campaigners convince people detractors that withdrawal would be a bad thing ? Agree with the "othering" stance mentioned by Petula, a bit like cuts to legal aid "i'm alright Jack" - until you're not

A lot of the traditional media were terrified of the HRA because it protects people's privacy. Their hostility can make it very difficult to tell so many good news stories about the act. Liberty has succeeded in getting inquests for neglected victims of crime and even new police investigations into crimes against vulnerable people. This was all due to positive rights to protection under the HRA. You can find details in my book and on the Liberty website.

@WinifredBanks

Hi Shami,

What do you see as the main consequences of David Cameron's government bringing in a new British Bill of Rights? Is there anything that you would change with regards to the way that the ECHR currently operates, or is it fit for purpose?

Thanks

It's fit for purpose and you should look very carefully at the detail and the motivations behind the proposed British Bill of Rights. It proposes that Human Rights Court judgements will only be advisory and that there should be fewer rights for people the government deems unworthy of protection. That is very weak protection indeed when any of us and our children can seem suspect from time to time in other people's eyes. I think a lot of politicians have been panicked by UKIP and want to be seen to bash Europe, without touching the single market. So if we're not careful, there will be internationalism for business, government and even organised crime, but no universal human rights for ordinary people.

@NoMoreDelays

Hi Shami,

Congratulations on becoming Chancellor of the University of Essex.

What was your reason for accepting this appointment (do you apply or are you approached I wonder?) and what do you think you can offer the staff and students of the University of Essex?

I was honoured to be approached, and in particular to be the first woman chancellor of that university. It has a strong, progressive tradition, not least with its Centre for Human Rights, and I hope to offer its staff and students a practical perspective on a lot of their academic interests.

@BookABooSue

Shami,

Thank you for being such a strong and vocal advocate for justice. It may seem like a thankless task at times but your efforts are very much appreciated and needed.

The Conservatives have announced attacks on the ECHR in the past. Do you think the threat has more substance this time or is it just bluster to win hearts and headlines during conference period?

There is more substance and detail this time. This makes the proposals both more dangerous and easier to unpick. The former Conservative AG, Dominic Grieve QC, has ably pointed out how the policy would put Britain in breach of international law, and risk breaking up the Union (both the Scotland and NI devolution settlements have the HRA built in). What is clear is that some senior Conservatives resent any real role for independent judges, either in Strasbourg or closer to home. Why should any kid on a council estate respect the local magistrate if our politicians won't respect our highest courts?

@ClaraSky

Hello Shami,

People shouldn't judge a book by it's cover, but we all do it.

On the cover of your book, you are wearing a white blindfold with the word 'liberty' written across it. What does this symbolise for you and how did you and the publishers come up with such strong imagery?

The team at Penguin had the idea for the book jacket and in truth, I initially winced, but they went on to explain the idea of justice being blind (as in the statue above the Old Bailey) and of course I also touch on the issue of torture in freedom's name in chapter five of the book. If a slightly shocking cover gets people reading it will be worthwhile.

Another question if I may; as a general populace, do you think that we understand enough about our rights and those of others, and the implications of changes by the government? If not, how do we address that? Different media emphasis, changes to the education system?

@Spingley

Hi Shami,

Thanks for doing this webchat! I was just wondering how you got to where you are today. Were there any particular career decisions which were really pivotal for you? And if I can sneak in a second question, what advice would you give to anyone else thinking of getting in to lobbying/campaigning.

Thanks!

I think the pivotal moments were going to university, reading for the bar, joining the Home Office, and leaving it...for Liberty. So the advice is to learn whatever you can, wherever you can, and not be afraid of a slightly accidental and varied career path.

Hi Shami, thanks for coming on. I was wondering whether you're getting paid for the book, or whether all proceeds will be going to Liberty?

@sheilafisher

Another ECHR question. Sorry.

Every bone in my body tells me that it is vital to remain part of this. Is there any reason at all, that the suggestion of coming out of it might be a good idea? Why was it not reasonable to expect a huge uproar when it was first floated as an idea?

People have been promised fool's gold; a shiny new British Bill of Rights that will always protect you but never suspect or unsavoury people. But now the detailed plan has been published, the cat is out of the bag. What some politicians want is far less scrutiny and legal accountability for them. That means less human rights protection for everyone in this country.

I ask because I actually have a direct debit to Liberty, as think they do vital work

@sheforher

Hi,

What kind of impact did your start date at Liberty (10th September 2001) have on the rest of your career do you think - both personally and in the wider political climate?

I'm going to be cheeky and ask you to have a look at chapter one of On Liberty. It's called Nothing to Hide, Nothing to Fear, and deals with 9/11 in my life and in wider British politics. The authoritarian arms race had already begun but it certainly escalated from that day. The main trends I point to are the death of privacy, the singling out of 'others' and the underlining of traditional fair trial protections. On a personal note, I was pregnant at the time, and so my son has lived his whole life in the War on Terror, and this has made me care about human rights in a less abstract and more intense way.

Hi Shami - wanted to ask about press regulation, as you were on the panel at the Leveson Inquiry. Were you disappointed that the inquiry's recommendations weren't fully implemented?

@stickymousemat

Hello. Related to scallopsrgreat's question a bit: does Liberty take a stance on online threats and harassment? Do you think the CPS is getting it about right in terms of which cases it pursues? In all honesty I'd like to see police forces taking malicious comms a lot more seriously, up to and including using RIPA to get people's personal information where necessary. Do you think these powers are under-used?

Yes. Criminal behaviour is no better or worse online than offline. If anything, the availability of social media - wonderful and empowering though it is - has encouraged some misogynistic hate crime, in particular under the cloak of anonymity. I have no problem with proportionate surveillance used to investigate this kind of serious abuse, but I do think that RIPA powers are generally too broad and should have more judicial safeguards.

@eggsandham

Hi. Liberty, and groups like it, play an important role in our society. But somethings I do think that you have an elevated position in the political debate given that you are not elected. Politicians are, at the end of the day, accountable to the people who vote for them. And when the people who vote for them want things that may come into conflict with the things you fight for, how do we reconcile the fact that no one voted for you? I'm thinking in particular of anti-terror legislation.

You are quite right that no one elected me and, as a democrat, I am not anti-politician or anti-politics. Our job at Liberty is to try to inform and stimulate democratic debate over fundamental rights, so that no one - that's voters, and their elected representatives - take them for granted.

@sawdustanddiamonds

Hi Shami, welcome to Mumsnet - I'd like to know which country you think has the best record at the moment on the protection of personal liberty? Congrats on the book

I'm not an expert on the situation all over the globe, and therefore perhaps not best qualified to answer your question, but I do know that we are very lucky in this country with human rights that other people can only fight for and dream of. What kind of a signal would we send to embryonic and younger democracies around the world if we scrapped our HRA, pulled out of the ECHR, out of a combination of fear and complacency.

@Crumblemum

Hi

A bit trivial, but what do you do about going on holiday?

Do you have a black list of countries you won't visit because of their human rights records, or do you visit, thinking the money you spend is a good investment to the local community?

I haven't been desperately adventurous in recent years, perhaps because my son was still quite young. Now that's changing, there might be a lot of people, many of them politicians, who would buy me a one-way ticket to North Korea...

@domesticslattern

Thanks for coming to MN. Really enjoyed your contribution at Workfest earlier in the year too.

What do you think makes a good lobbyist and campaigner? How much do you need to work within the system to change it?

It's good to know your subject, and to be able to listen to, and communicate with, the widest number of people. So sometimes the keyboard, sometimes the microphone, and even the loudhailer. But when human rights are concerned, the legal letter remains the iron fist in the velvet glove.

@EdwinDrood

Hey Shami - thank you v much for doing this webchat.

Was wondering what is your view on Edward Snowden? He's gained something of a hero status - do you think it's deserved, or a just a bit of hype?

Thanks in advance

Whistle-blowing should not be undertaken lightly, and even after the difficult decision to breach confidences, ethical responsibilities continue. I believe that Snowden was an important and ethical whistleblower, who started a vital debate about unlawful blanket surveillance of people by their governments. This surveillance was often sanctioned neither by parliaments nor the courts. By involving senior editors of established, world class newspapers, Snowden showed care and responsibility in the manner of his disclosures.

@WinifredBanks

Another question if I may; as a general populace, do you think that we understand enough about our rights and those of others, and the implications of changes by the government? If not, how do we address that? Different media emphasis, changes to the education system?

One of the problems with the current HRA debate is that so many people don't know what they have to lose. That's why I've actually included the full text of the HRA at the end of my book. Don't believe the spin, read your modern bill of rights for yourself.