Penelope Leach webchat: Join discussion about her latest book: Family Breakdown: Helping children hang on to both parents

[RachelMumsnet]

Penelope Leach is a research psychologist, and one of the world’s leading experts in child development. The author of numerous books on childcare, including the classic manual Your Baby and Child, she is herself a mother of two, and grandmother of six.

Penelope's latest book, Family Breakdown: Helping Children Hang On To Both Their Parents, has been described as "obligatory reading for anyone even contemplating the ending of a relationship where children are involved". The book, which looks at divorce and separation from the child’s point-of-view, is aimed at parents who have separated or divorced or intend to do so, as well as their extended families and prospective partners, and the professionals who support and advise them. Above all, the book is written to help those parents help their children.

Join Penelope for a webchat on Friday 27th June between midday and 1pm. If you're unable to make it then, do post a question for Penelope in advance on this thread.

Penelope what do you have to say about the fact that nearly all bona fide research shows that outcomes for the children of lone parents are exactly the same as the outcomes for those of coupled parents, if you weight the data for income variations? In other words, because couples are richer than singles, the reason for bad outcomes for children of lone parents is not to do with lone parenthood per se, it's to do with income. And if the parent with care has a degree, even that income variable is not significant; outcomes across a range of variables (mental health, academic achievement, employment etc.) are the same.

Don't you think it's about time we stopped urging women to keep on working on relationships which the men they live with don't work on, and instead stop punishing them and their children with poverty when they dare to end those relationships?

@redundantandbitter

I echo the posters above. I read your article on Sunday and caught a snippet of you on radio .

Couldn't help but think 'how on earth can you get a non cooperative parent to cooperate?'

My ex moved to another county with a new girlfriend and we we spent hundreds of pounds in mediation trying to get him to look after our dcs whilst I worked on a Saturday . No joy. My boss saved the day by changing my shifts. Hurrah for my ex. I ended up paying more in childcare and then he reduced his maintenance payments as he got his EOW arrangement as he wished. Not great for me.

What exactly would you say to a father that says 'I need to spend time with my fiancé' ? This is a professional bloke in his 40's.

I think your ideas are lovely. In practise ...... Well, good luck.

That has to be the most difficult situation of all when not only does the non-resident parent not want to be with the children, but actually ups and leaves the area so that visits are really difficult to arrange. I think, and this is just a personal view, that it's unfair that mothers whose children are reluctant to see their fathers have to try to make them do so, but there's absolutely no legal pressure on fathers to see their children. I wish I could suggest something useful but I really don't know what to suggest other than some of the changes to the family courts that we're working towards.

I've found that a few key guidelines can help divorcing parents protect their children. It is not always easy but by sticking to the following children can survive and thrive.

1. Repeatedly tell your children that you love them, and that your ex loves them and make sure they don't feel in any way to blame. Make sure your actions back up your words
2. NEVER undermine, criticise you ex or try and get your children to take sides (this i.e. easier if you are able to do number 3 too)
3. Make sure you're meeting your own emotional needs and getting support for yourself where necessary, but don't use the children as an emotional crutch.
4. Find relationships that you'd be happy for your children to copy as they mature - I'd disagree with Penelope on this one - staying together for the children in an emotionally crippled relationship prevents both parents from moving on and finding mutually respectful relationships that would provide healthy models for children to copy and learn from.

My parents divorced when I was in my late teens. They've since told me that they stayed together until we were 'old enough' to manage but I think retrospectively that it had an enormous impact on me at that age. I think this was partly the realisation that their relationship wasn't normal throughout my childhood that was quite hard to take in. I've since reflected a lot about whether it would have been better if they'd not stayed together 'for my sake'. Do you agree that teenagers are expected to cope with divorce and that it's actually quite a difficult time to manage this? Do you talk about this in your book?

@AskBasil

Penelope what do you have to say about the fact that nearly all bona fide research shows that outcomes for the children of lone parents are exactly the same as the outcomes for those of coupled parents, if you weight the data for income variations? In other words, because couples are richer than singles, the reason for bad outcomes for children of lone parents is not to do with lone parenthood per se, it's to do with income. And if the parent with care has a degree, even that income variable is not significant; outcomes across a range of variables (mental health, academic achievement, employment etc.) are the same.

Don't you think it's about time we stopped urging women to keep on working on relationships which the men they live with don't work on, and instead stop punishing them and their children with poverty when they dare to end those relationships?

Hi, thank you for your interesting post. Can I answer it in two halves?

First, I absolutely agree with you that we don't take nearly enough notice of the practical and partocularly the financial effects of separation and divorce and I've written a good many pages about that, and your statistics about the children of lone mothers are absolutely right. Though, I need to point out that the few statistics that we've got about the children of that rare breed 'the lone father', suggest exactly the same for them. So if practical circumstances can be half-way reasonable, children can do just as well in a lone parent family as with two parents.

On the other hand, I can't quite agree with you that it's a waste of effort for resident parents (let's remember that sometimes dad, not mum) to put in a lot of effort trying to keep contact with the children. There is evidence that having contact with both parents, and particularly having contact with your father, even when your mother is the resident parent, ensures that children will do better in extraordinarily large numbers, kike better at school, better at exams, better with friends, better at adult relationships and better when they have children themselves.

So I personally think that whatever effort the resident parent can make with the other parent is 100% worthwhile. I know that's not a popular view for struggling single parents, but that's certainly what the children's point of view suggests.

I live in a blended family where my two stepsons, after several years of shared residency (split weeks) decided to come and live with their father (and me and their little sister). They see very little of their mother who has never taken responsibility for their upbringing. It's not always the mother who bears the brunt of responsibility on divorce!

@Tamsinx2

My parents divorced when I was in my late teens. They've since told me that they stayed together until we were 'old enough' to manage but I think retrospectively that it had an enormous impact on me at that age. I think this was partly the realisation that their relationship wasn't normal throughout my childhood that was quite hard to take in. I've since reflected a lot about whether it would have been better if they'd not stayed together 'for my sake'. Do you agree that teenagers are expected to cope with divorce and that it's actually quite a difficult time to manage this? Do you talk about this in your book?

I'm really glad that you've raised this because I very much agree with you that adults tend to think that once children are 'grown-up' they won't be particualrly upset by parental divorce, and actually, as you are saying, it's just as shattering for a teenager or young adult as for a younger child.

Yes, I do talk about this in my book, a lot! And try to make the point you're hinting at, I think, which is that when you're made to realise that your parent's relationship wasn't the way it seemed, it makes you question whether your whole childhood was something of a falsehood. Some people do find it helpful to talk to parents about this aspect of it, maybe even using family photos to try and establish when things went wrong or which holidays were actually less good than they were said to be. But of course, that depends whether one or both of your parents are willing to talk. I hope they are, because surely that's the least they can do.

@DrAmandaGummer

I've found that a few key guidelines can help divorcing parents protect their children. It is not always easy but by sticking to the following children can survive and thrive.

1. Repeatedly tell your children that you love them, and that your ex loves them and make sure they don't feel in any way to blame. Make sure your actions back up your words
2. NEVER undermine, criticise you ex or try and get your children to take sides (this i.e. easier if you are able to do number 3 too)
3. Make sure you're meeting your own emotional needs and getting support for yourself where necessary, but don't use the children as an emotional crutch.
4. Find relationships that you'd be happy for your children to copy as they mature - I'd disagree with Penelope on this one - staying together for the children in an emotionally crippled relationship prevents both parents from moving on and finding mutually respectful relationships that would provide healthy models for children to copy and learn from.

Hi Dr Gummer,

Of course I absolutely agree with all the points in your message because they are all points I'm trying to push too. Do you work in this field?

@PenelopeLeach

[quote DrAmandaGummer] I've found that a few key guidelines can help divorcing parents protect their children. It is not always easy but by sticking to the following children can survive and thrive.

1. Repeatedly tell your children that you love them, and that your ex loves them and make sure they don't feel in any way to blame. Make sure your actions back up your words
2. NEVER undermine, criticise you ex or try and get your children to take sides (this i.e. easier if you are able to do number 3 too)
3. Make sure you're meeting your own emotional needs and getting support for yourself where necessary, but don't use the children as an emotional crutch.
4. Find relationships that you'd be happy for your children to copy as they mature - I'd disagree with Penelope on this one - staying together for the children in an emotionally crippled relationship prevents both parents from moving on and finding mutually respectful relationships that would provide healthy models for children to copy and learn from.

Hi Dr Gummer,

Of course I absolutely agree with all the points in your message because they are all points I'm trying to push too. Do you work in this field?[/quote]

By the way, I don't anywhere suggest that parents should stay together 'in an emotionally crippled relationship' for the sake of the children. I think if a marriage or partnership is no longer meeting the emotional needs of the adults, they have to be allowed a way out of it but my concern is that that way out should do as little harm to the children as possible.

@Bonsoir

I live in a blended family where my two stepsons, after several years of shared residency (split weeks) decided to come and live with their father (and me and their little sister). They see very little of their mother who has never taken responsibility for their upbringing. It's not always the mother who bears the brunt of responsibility on divorce!

I'm glad to see somebody making this important point that although the usual arrangement is for mothers to be the resident parent, and father the 'other', it doesn't have to be that way, and sometimes isn't.

I wonder how old your step sons were when the living arrangements were finally changed?

@Ruby6918

myself and partner broke up four years ago and we still have not moved on its been devastating for us all kids and me and my health has deteriorated greatly so im looking forward to any advice u can give me as a woman and mother thank you, we were together over 18 years and now hate each other

I’m so sorry. That’s a very long time to live in hate. You don’t say how old the children are but I wonder how they feel about things – especially about their dad. Have you tried any kind of Mediation? I think that’s probably your best hope of finding a way forward.

@harrietspy

My stbxh and I are trying a 'nesting' arrangement in which the children live permanently in one family home and their father and I move in and out depending on whose turn it is to look after the children... Harder on us than on the kids, but that's how it should be. I don't know anyone else who's tried this so it was good to hear you mention it on Woman's Hour.

Intuitively this feels like a good thing for my kids, but is there any hard evidence yet that this is better for children than them moving between 2 parental homes?

I don’t know of any research specifically on this which could provide hard evidence, but parents who manage a system like this – where the children stay put and they move in and out, swear by it. So well done. This is real putting children first.

@Anormalfamily

When does "helping" become unhealthy? Dh and I both entered our second marriage with kids from previous relationships. While I feel I've "moved on" and ds is settled and I enjoy a good relationship with ex and his dw, dh is still walking on eggshells around his ex (although there never was any doubt she'd cut access, etc), and panders terribly to his kids (even with dss now living 50:50 with us, own choice at 12). We've had counseling for 18 months and nothing much has changed. Dh is being adamantly dysfunctional!

I wonder what you most hoped to change? It sounds as if it’s the basic attitudes of your partner to his first family and counselling is unlikely to change those unless he agrees with you that change is needed – ie knows he’s what you describe as dysfunctional!

@heyday

How can a child still maintain a relationship with his father if that father is exposing him to unpleasant aspects of life ie allowing various women live in his flat so child is exposed to an endless round of dad's girlfriends and dad hangs out with guys who smoke weed in front of child. He is a wretched role model and I want to cut contact to a minimum but still enable some sort of relationship or is this very unwise and all contact should be stopped?

I am sorry you’re in such a wretched place. I wonder how old the child is and what he or she feels about spending time with Dad. The situation you describe sounds very undesirable, especially your child’s exposure to drug-taking. Is there any chance of the two of you talking together over how to ensure that the child is safe in his father’s care? If not I suggest you consult social services . Their priority will be the child’s safety but they will also recognise the importance of the relationship he has with his father.
and will work to establish the right balance between the two. They will not cut off contact but will certainly limit it while the situation you describe is investigated. I don’t personally believe that it’s ever right to stop all contact between a child and a parent but
“Contact” can mean many different things. Your child could possibly meet with Dad not at his home but somewhere neutral that guaranteed safety such as a grandparents home or even a contact centre

Any advice for resident parents where the non-resident parent repeatedly fails to turn up for contact, leaving the cliched disappointed little faces at the window watching for him, or repeatedly cancels contact at the last minute? How to explain to the children? Is this more or less harmful to the children than just giving up on trying to encourage contact?

Second question, perhaps less significant, but how to support a child who feels like a second-class citizen when visiting NRP and new partner. One recent example was a 6-year-old who is 'shouted at' by dad's new partner if she drops or spills anything in their child-free home.

@FrontForward

I think we all know that divorce is not a good thing So that is hardly breaking news, nor is the fact that parental conflict or alienation is harmful.

Divorce is certainly not to be aspired to however some marriages are worse and in those cases divorce is better. Aspiring to a good divorce is the thing here but there is the fact that if you could divorce 'well' you probably don't need to...

I heard your interview on Radio 2 and got the impression that your own experiences had made a huge impact on you, possibly colouring your views. I'm interested in the research sources for the book

I absolutely agree that for some adults staying married can sometimes be worse than getting divorced. But unfortunately that’s very very seldom true for children. And I’m afraid I don’t agree with you that everyone knows how important is parents fighting or trying to alienate the children from each other. When parents part it’s not their actual separation that seems to hit children hardest, but their enmity. The mutual parenting I’m asking people to think about can’t make a divorce “good” for children but it can make it a great deal less awful.

I’m sure my experiences have impacted on me. The whole point about childhood – birth onwards – is that our experiences and relationships DO affect us for the rest of our lives. There’s a 45 year happy marriage between now and my parents divorce, though, so a lot of other experience and study to colour my views.

@ljny

Any advice for resident parents where the non-resident parent repeatedly fails to turn up for contact, leaving the cliched disappointed little faces at the window watching for him, or repeatedly cancels contact at the last minute? How to explain to the children? Is this more or less harmful to the children than just giving up on trying to encourage contact?

Second question, perhaps less significant, but how to support a child who feels like a second-class citizen when visiting NRP and new partner. One recent example was a 6-year-old who is 'shouted at' by dad's new partner if she drops or spills anything in their child-free home.

I like to think that parents who understand how important they are to their chidlren absolutely couldn't do the sad face at the window thing –it makes me really sad on your and their behalf. I don't want to overemphasise it's importance but I do wonder whether if your ex would read my book on family breakdown it might actually help him to understand what he's doing to the children but in a good way. In other words, make him feel the vitaly important person to them that he really is. I think that might be more effective than making him feel rubbish, which of course is what you (and I!) feel like doing. In the meantime, I think it helps a bit to prepare the children by reminding that daddy finds it really difficult to keep arrangements and be on time, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love them anymore. They may not believe you but it's worth a try!

I so hate the thought of a six-year-old feeling like a second class citizen. What's really important about your question is that in my view, what new partner has the right to take on disciplinary and particularly cross roles with partner's children. The children already have a mother - that's you. They don't need her trying to behave as if she is their mother. If you're on reasonable terms with your ex partner, perhaps you could talk to him about the fact that the relationships would work much better if she was kind to them as their father's companion, rather than acting like a mother and a cross one at that!

Penelope I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that lone parents shouldn't facilitate contact, I was saying that people should stop urging women, who are the designated gate-keepers of relationships, to bend over backwards to preserve those relationships, when in fact the relationship may not be worth keeping and are most certainly not worth keeping if the other party is not working at it (and I've lost count of the number of times I've heard of couples separating where for years the woman has been desperately trying to keep a crap relationship together and it's only when she files for divorce that suddenly the husband starts desperately flailing around doing too little too late to try and save it, when in fact had he done more earlier on the breakdown would never have occurred).

I didn't mention anything about it being "a waste of effort for resident parents (let's remember that sometimes dad, not mum) to put in a lot of effort trying to keep contact with the children", so I'm not quite sure why you're disagreeing with me on something I didn't mention.

However since you've run with that, why are you focusing on the resident parent's efforts regarding contact? If you speak to Gingerbread (which I'm sure you have) then you'll know that the major problem for most resident parents regarding contact, is that the NRP doesn't make enough effort to maintain regular contact. At what point should the constant failure to turn up at the appointed time for contact, to bring the children back at the appointed time, to spend proper quality time with them and to actually be fully involved in their lives, be recognised for the emotional abuse it is? When you have seen your child excited and dressed and waiting for Daddy from 9AM on Saturday and eventually crestfallen taken the coat off and unpacked at 1PM when the hungover text message comes through that Daddy's not coming after all for 4 Saturdays in a row, at what stage do you have the duty to protect your child from that emotional abuse? Do you think there's any chance that courts might actually put some sort of duty on NRP's not to do this to their children?

@meandcoffeeequalhappy

So how do you achieve mutual parenting when divorce comes about because of one party's alcoholism, mental health issues, and lack of bonding with his children (the words of a medical professional - not mine). In an ideal world marriage wouldn't break down, and in the case this isn't possible parents would be sensible and co-parent. But in real life when one parents just is not able to (or doesn't want to) be a regular and healthy part of their children's lives, what then? Is it for the RP to read books like this and feel utterly guilty, and is not able to change anything to make their children's lives perfect? What can the RP do to help their children then?

I'm so sorry you're in such a horrible place. I wish I could help, or suggest who could help. I'm not surprised if books, including mine, are not helpful, but I do beg you not to let them make you feel guilty. You're doing absolutely the best you can against very substantial odds.

The only suggestion I would make is that some contact between the children and their father, even if it's only phone calls or attempts to make arrangements, is better than none. What seems to be most damaging when a father won't play a fathering role is for children to feel that he's completely vanished, or completely abandoned them. I even wonder (and you've probably tried this already) whether asking less of him in terms of being a regular part of their lives might enable him to give them a little bit more in terms of letters, phone calls etc.

A final point: it sounds as if the children's father is certainly troubled and perhaps ill and as the children grow older it will be helpful for them to understand that it was his problems that kept them apart, not his rejection of them.

@AskBasil

Penelope I think you misunderstood my post. I wasn't saying that lone parents shouldn't facilitate contact, I was saying that people should stop urging women, who are the designated gate-keepers of relationships, to bend over backwards to preserve those relationships, when in fact the relationship may not be worth keeping and are most certainly not worth keeping if the other party is not working at it (and I've lost count of the number of times I've heard of couples separating where for years the woman has been desperately trying to keep a crap relationship together and it's only when she files for divorce that suddenly the husband starts desperately flailing around doing too little too late to try and save it, when in fact had he done more earlier on the breakdown would never have occurred).

I didn't mention anything about it being "a waste of effort for resident parents (let's remember that sometimes dad, not mum) to put in a lot of effort trying to keep contact with the children", so I'm not quite sure why you're disagreeing with me on something I didn't mention.

However since you've run with that, why are you focusing on the resident parent's efforts regarding contact? If you speak to Gingerbread (which I'm sure you have) then you'll know that the major problem for most resident parents regarding contact, is that the NRP doesn't make enough effort to maintain regular contact. At what point should the constant failure to turn up at the appointed time for contact, to bring the children back at the appointed time, to spend proper quality time with them and to actually be fully involved in their lives, be recognised for the emotional abuse it is? When you have seen your child excited and dressed and waiting for Daddy from 9AM on Saturday and eventually crestfallen taken the coat off and unpacked at 1PM when the hungover text message comes through that Daddy's not coming after all for 4 Saturdays in a row, at what stage do you have the duty to protect your child from that emotional abuse? Do you think there's any chance that courts might actually put some sort of duty on NRP's not to do this to their children?

I don't think we're disagreeing about anything but words and emphasis'. Certainly, I entirely agree with you that the responsibility for making relationships with children work after divorce is at least as much of the NRP and the RP.

Where I'm not sure I agree with you - I think it probably depends entirely on the individual situation - is that there's ever a good time to give up on it. The courts are changing their attitudes towards emotional abuse, putting some sort of duty on NRPs not to do this, as well as on both parents to avoid at all costs alienating the children from the other parent.

And yes, thank goodness for Gingerbread.

@germinal

Hi Ms. Leach,

Firstly I just wanted to say how valued your book 'Your Baby and Child' is in our home (I have 3 children 5yrs and under). I can't properly express the relief it was to have it by my side in those very early years, never judgemental, always kind, and gently understanding of cranky parents and emotional little ones. I don't want to gush but you should be so proud of the difference you have made to many (small and big peoples) lives.

Secondly, is it difficult to read criticism of your book as "anti father" rather than child focused.

Thirdly do you think non custodial parents worry too much about establishing a secure attachment through regular and lengthy contact? Especially for very young children? Does quality mean more than quantity for contact?

Quality really matters in the sense that if parent (father or mother) and child don’t have a good time together and look forward to being together they wont be building the attachment between them. But quantity matters too, and not only with little children. Weekend visits are great but a quick phone call or a pick up from school during the week, and always being eager to attend school occasions helps too.

What might have got a bit exaggerated is the importance to attachment of babies and toddlers staying overnight. You can build a warm close relationship in daytime visits and it’s when you’ve built that relationship so that your child feels secure and safe with you as well as with the other parent that overnight stays will become valuable instead of stressful.

Time's up! I've really enjoyed these conversations and I hope I'll meet some of you at BumpFest in September. I'll be there and there will be more time to talk. Meanwhile, happy summer everybody!

Sorry I missed this, will be back to catch up later

My mum and dad have become official foster parents for my brothers two children. They are doing a brilliant job but come across resistance when the two children have their every two month visit with their mum or dad. My mum gets rather upset because the children are just naughty for the next week after these visits.
How can my parents help with the lost of the children's parents which out having to ride out these periods. Normally the children are wonderful and love living with their grandma and grandad.
I think the older they become the more complicated these visits are going to get. They need a coping mechanism.
Thank you

A shame to see that the reviews on Amazon have been hijacked by Fathers groups.
Even worse to see that Penelope's Wikipaedia page has been modified yesterday to remove much of her professional information and to add a brand new "Criticisms" section referring directly to the book.