Children's bedtimes and sleep problems: read Professor Tanya Byron's answers to your questions

[GeraldineMumsnet]

We're delighted that consultant clinical psychologist Prof Tanya Byron is our webchat guest on Monday evening to answer your questions about children's sleep - how much they need at different ages, how you can stop bedtimes turning into a battle, and how can you encourage your children to sleep through the night.

Tanya is leading the Bedtime Live team on Channel Four on Tuesday evenings at 8pm, trying to provide parents with techniques to get under-10s into bed by 9pm and to get teens into good sleep habits.

You've already been discussing her warnings about the effects of sleep deprivation on children's development on this thread.

So, whether your children will be soundly asleep or deploying endless delaying tactics at 9pm on Monday, do come and put your question about children's sleep to Tanya.

You can find out more here about Bedtime Live and the topics it has covered so far. The next prog (Tues 9 April, 8pm) will look at the effect of lack of sleep on first-time fathers.

[appleandplum]

My 14 month old is mostly bf/bottle fed to sleep and wakes several times in the night. I feed him back to sleep as i also have 3 yr old twins who wake when he cries, when i have tried not to feed in the past.

Any advice?

[CutePuppy]

Nick nacks, sorry!

[DrTanyaByron]

@NickNacks

Don't know if age 6/7 is too old for your advice but...

My son is 7 this year and a very deep sleeper. So deep that he is unable to toilet train at night. Doesn't even notice if he completely soaks through. Has slept through every sort of instance such as falling out of bed, stitches in hospital, loud storms.

Will he grow out of this or should we seek help?

I recommend you seek advice from ERIC (enuresis research and information council). They have great advice and support for kids like yours who need help with nocturnal enuresis and provide pads and alarms to help them wake when they first wee and then take themselves off to empty in the loo. Overtime the bladder will learn to accommodate the urine through the night.

[Ruthsedge]

Hi Tanya, I am struggling with a 23 month old who vomits...a lot... At bedtime if we don't lie with her. Even if I sit on edge of bed and try not to look at her. We have bedtime routine and she is tired but we haven't a clue. She may only cry for 5 mins before she makes herself sick...help! please!!!! Thanks ruth

[sparklytoes]

Thanks for answering - I'm wondering about the evidence base for an attachment being formed in the first 6 months? For me, it's an ongoing process that can still be disrupted after 6 months of age. Agree that each family need to do what is right for them - but would like to see more families have more knowledge about how and why behavioural techniques work (conditioning/learned helplessness etc) before they make their decision. Do you think families have this information when making their decisions about what path to go down?

[DrTanyaByron]

@CutePuppy

Nicknames, I have the same problem.

Dr Tanya I know night training is hormonal, but what can we do to help deep sleepers who still wet at night? My six year old is still in night time pants and is quite upset by it. But he just sleeps through soaking the bed without them. Do you advocate lifting as I have heard this just trains them to go at night?

Lifting means you are not allowing the bladder to learn to hold urine though the night. See earlier post re ERIC.

[DrTanyaByron]

@sparklytoes

Thanks for answering - I'm wondering about the evidence base for an attachment being formed in the first 6 months? For me, it's an ongoing process that can still be disrupted after 6 months of age. Agree that each family need to do what is right for them - but would like to see more families have more knowledge about how and why behavioural techniques work (conditioning/learned helplessness etc) before they make their decision. Do you think families have this information when making their decisions about what path to go down?

Plenty of info out there!

I work clinically with families whose lives are decimated by no sleep, relationships in crisis. But I never prescribe a one size fits all.

[LeSquish]

Massively exhausted. Have a 6 month old with silent reflux (medically managed with ranitidine) and cows milk protein intolerance (on neocate). He has been weaned since 5 months and had started sleeping from 12 until 6am.....but for the past fortnight has been waking up wailing at 2, 3, 4 and then awake from 6 onwards. He will only nap for about 40 mins into morning and half an hour in the afternoons. I am literally on my knees wit exhaustion. He never wants more than 2oz at night when he wakes but will lie there wailing with his eyes shut. Dummy doesn't help, nor does white noise Etc. loathe to try rocking him as want him to continue to self soothe. (He does this to fall asleep after bedtime routine). Also takes him a good hour- hour and a half to fall asleep at night, despite eye rubbing and yawning etc. please help, I'm going mad with tiredness. Thanks in advance.

[BertieBotts]

I'd also like to know if you believe so strongly that feeding/cuddling/rocking to sleep is a "wrong" sleep association and children will never learn to fall asleep alone, how come so many of them do when they grow out of it?

I co slept with my DS until he was 2, he stopped feeding to sleep naturally at around 10 months - he would feed, roll away and fall asleep by himself. He was happy when I moved him to his own bed and although he did used to wake and come into our bed, he grew out of this too. Now he is 4 he is very easy to put to bed, I can give him a kiss and tuck him in and he's asleep within minutes of me leaving. I did stay with him to fall asleep until he was around 3 or so, but he did grow out of it by himself when he was ready and it wasn't a problem for us.

I know you will probably say not all children react in the same way, clearly, but although I was settling him to sleep much later than is "normal" in our culture, it seems to me that he reached these milestones perfectly fine by himself when he was developmentally ready to.

I'm probably too late to have my question answered but in the face of this (and I'm not the only one as have seen the same thing played out on these boards by many posters' children) do you think that all of this is really worth worrying and stressing about, or do you genuinely believe that the kind of sleep "problems" you are solving are real difficulties for children? I'm not talking about the problems with teenagers or older children because to me that is a totally separate issue.

[SleepyE]

My second son is 27 months and I have not had more than 5 hours sleep at a time (a rare treat rather than the norm) in that time. He has terrible habits which we have allowed because we were worried about the effcts of waking the firstborn (now 4.5). Until last week he was spending 7.30pm (bedtime) til 10-11pm in his own bed in a shared room with his brother, and then settling in our bed with a BF until ~5.30am when he would wake for the day. Prior to that he was also waking around 2am and required a BF to settle but I put my foot down and after a few nights he got the message. I am now trying to work on getting him to spend the whole night in his own bed, which at the moment involves me 'sleeping' with him from the 10-11pm wake up until when he wakes up at 5.30 and starts creating merry hell. We have a Gro clock and have been trying to reinforce the idea that he should stay in bed quietly till the sun comes up (6am- I'm not greedy!). But he wakes up and either screams in temper or wants to play.

He naps for about 2 hours at midday, but this seems to have no effect on the night waking/early start as there have been times he has refused to nap and still wakes as often and when he has longer it is the same too.

I have been glued to Bedtime Live in the hope of some pointers and thought I'd got it all worked out with some help from Elizabeth Pantley's 'No Cry Sleep Solution' and was feeling quite positive but I feel like I have hit a brick wall and have no idea what to do next. I have already handed my notice in at work as I couldn't handle the high pressure (life/ death) in my previous career with the lack of sleep. I am at rock bottom and really feel I need to get this sorted out before eldest starts school in Sept.

[DrTanyaByron]

@HotheadPaisan

Hello Tanya, DS1 in nearly seven and has ASD with extreme separation anxiety. Although we have a great bedtime routine of me reading him to sleep at the same time each night following liquid melatonin he still needs us throughout the night. Would long release melatonin be worth a try or something else do you think?

I feel he won't be able to separate at night until he can in the day (he follows us from room to room) but perhaps a different medication would help. Rewards just do not work by the way, he just can't cope so I'm happy with what's happening for now but obviously would like him in his own bed and room at some point. Any rays of hope to offer? Thanks.

It may be anxiety and he will need help to learn to manage that. I am a BIG FAN of Dawn Huebners books and her WHAT TO DI WHEN YIU DREAD YOUR BED is great for over 6 year olds.

[NickNacks]

Thank you :)

[CutePuppy]

Thank you. We head on over to the Eric website.

[DrTanyaByron]

Good night all.

Sorry couldn't get through the many interesting questions. And thank you to those just posting nice comments.

Sorry for the typos - long clinic day, just got in....

Just to say again - don't let anyone make you feel wrong for the choices you make if they feel right for you. I certainly don't prescribe a one size fits all.

I'll think of mumsnet tomorrow night when I do the Live show and to those that watch and have been so complimentary - many thanks.

#bedtimelive. C4 Tuesday 9 and 16 April 8-9 pm.

Night! Tanya x

[sparklytoes]

Thanks again for response. Yep, plenty of info out there - A lot of it contradictory as well! I find that families are often interested in techniques that work (obviously!) and behavioural techniques can be effective. They often don't (in my experience) have the info about the psychological mechanisms underpinning how they work. They often want to look at different options when they have an awareness of this (some don't and that is fair enough as at least they have all the info). Plenty of alternative gentle techniques that are a lot less stressful for parents and little ones. Interesting discussion!

[SarahMumsnet]

Thanks everyone for a great, and informative, chat. We're waving Tanya off now for some well-deserved - for those of you whose questions Tanya didn't get a chance to respond to (and those whose questions she did!) you can catch her on Bedtime Live on Channel 4 tomorrow.

[CreatureRetorts]

Thank you!

LeSquish, cuddle your baby or rock. He could be teething or the reflyx flaring up again (my two both had it). There's also a developmental leap around 6 months. Perhaps try putting him on his tummy if he can roll now. It'll pass and he'll self settle again - something is wrong which is why he isn't doing it now.

[WantOurRoomBack]

Thank you Tanya. Lots of food for thought.

[JaffaSnaffle]

Thank you Tanya

[PurpleKittyKnitting]

Well when my daughter was younger I did 2 things that apparently you shouldn't, a bit of controlled crying and lifting onto the loo when we went to bed. But it worked for us!

Just now the problem with the typical teen issue that there just doesn't seem to be an answer to. I will continue to watch the show for any teeny tiny tips!

Thanks for taking the time to come to us today!