Live webchat about childcare reform with Liz Truss, Education & Childcare Minister, Thursday 7 February, 1pm

[JustineMumsnet]

Hello hello,

We'll be welcoming the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Education and Childcare - Elizabeth Truss MP - for a webchat on Thursday Feb 7th (tomorrow) 1pm - 2pm.

As the Member of Parliament for South West Norfolk, Elizabeth Truss lives in Downham Market with her husband and two daughters. She was brought up in Yorkshire and, before entering Parliament, worked as the Deputy Director at the think-tank Reform. She also worked in the energy and telecommunications industry for 10 years and is a qualified management accountant.

Elizabeth recently wrote a Mumsnet guest blog on the Government's plans for childcare reform, which generated this recent thread - and childcare expert Penelope Leach responded to the proposals here.

Do post your question in advance on this thread, or join us live on Thursday 1pm-2pm.

And, as ever, a gentle reminder to all to stick to our webchat guidelines.

Many thanks.

'I hope to speak to more parents and people working in childcare over the next few months'

Oh FFS! These are proposals which will materially affect the lives of many, many working parents, care providers and children. REAL LIVES, REAL PEOPLE. Don't you think the Minister concerned should be doing a bit more than 'hoping' to speak to more parents etc. There are 300 posts on this thread and the only ones agreeing with Liz are her own. This webchat is yet another embarassing example of exactly how distanced the Tory government are from the people they are supposed to be serving.

Anybody fancy counting how many questions she didn't answer? I know she didn't answer anything about childcare vouchers - either at 3 yrs old or by salary sacrifice. One assumes that's because Dave hasn't told her what to think on that yet. I know she didn't answer the challenges about her own childcare choice either. I wouldn't expect her to answer that except that it's already in the public domain and she bought her experience as a parent in to this debate. Shabby therefore not to respond to challenges on that point.

Mumsnet HQ - can you get somebody in from Labour now to see if they can do a better job?

@vezzie

OI MNHQ, you deleted my post - presumably the one that said, "are you stupid?" - that is not a personal attack, it's a question. On that basis you could never try anyone for a crime because it would be considered MEAN to ask the person in the dock if they had done it.

Yes we did delete it Vezzie, not so much for being a personal attack but for rudeness - see our webchat guidelines (specifically number 4) re "be polite".
Thanks

I too would like to see Stephen Twigg come on and put across the labour party view on the proposals and answer some of the many questions Ms Truss so obviously avoided.

I would also like to see Mr Twigg agree to come and visit some of the strong network clusters of child minders, nurseries with more concern for child welfare than profit and (most importantly) parents who will be the biggest losers of these proposals with a choice between increasing costs or poorer quality care, and for some parents there wont be a choice!

so if I'm reading it roght the NCMA are NOT in favour of the proposals??? so Ms Truss misled us today when she said she had consulted with them...what she actually did was consult them then ignored their views (and those of the majority of their members)

Reading the responses from Ms Truss is SO disappointing and heartbreaking.

I note that she hasn't accepted any offers to go and look after 6 under 2's and is attempting to gloss over the safety point.

Think we should organise peaceful buggy protests at Westminster / outside all MP's offices till this ridiculous idea is dropped - who's with me?

I would hazard a guess that provided she asks the question then no matter what the answer it counts as 'consultation'

I like your suggestion Dawnev. A head-to-head, Liz Truss and Stephen Twigg in a nursery (I can see great reality TV opportunities here). Seriously, very sad that we're not able to see the benefits of quantity and quality. Strength of feeling here speaks volumes.

blondieminx outside Westminster with all that traffic? You'll need a risk assessment....

Consultation - When you ask thousands of people's opinions on a project of yours and then ignore them when they say your project is terrible.

I asked the following questions " In developing your proposals for increasing ratios for children aged 2 and under, what consideration has been given to (the widely accepted) views on the importance of developing sound attachments with responsive care-givers? Whose advice have you sought and what did they say? Is their advice consistent with others involved in child development (e.g. developmental psychologists)? How realistic do you think it is that a carer (even one with GCSEs in maths and English) will be able to provide responsive care to 4 babies under the age of 1 or six 2 year olds?"

She answered "I'm very aware of the research on attachment, and to be clear on babies, we would only allow nurseries to operate on the extended ratio if they were taking on somebody who was really experienced and expert. The evidence from studies like EPPE, and from the OECD's Starting Strong work, that having graduates in settings, even for babies, has a positive impact on children's outcomes."

From what I can see the EPPE is a study of children aged 3 to 7, so not relevant to the discussion on babies aged 2 and under. Anyone got any details about OECD's Starting Strong research and whether that actually looks at attachment outcomes for babies? Additionally, the gov is not talking about getting graduates into baby rooms. It's planning to get kids with GCSE in English and Maths in there.

If there is a genuine discussion to be had about attachment and ratios, let's have one. I'm sure many child development specialists would be delighted to join in. Don't try and confuse the issue by quoting research that irrelevant. Shocking.

I wonder if the researchers at the Institute of Education who participated in the EPPE program are aware that their research is being used to support the proposed changes in the ratios for 2s and under. Anyone here work for IOE and would like to bring that to their attention?

Go on then blondie. Lets have a protest. When's half term for London, just so she can get the full effect of how many children:adults and invite nurseries along on their current ratio....

Can't believe Liz had a nanny when she just said repeatedly that a childcarer on £16k looking after 6 toddlers would provide such amazing quality childcare that Britain would be the envy of the modern world.

Yet she disadvantaged her own children by having them looked after on their own by a childcarer paid significantly more! These mps, more money than sense by the looks of things.

I'm sorry I missed the webchat. I was dealing with the individual needs of my teething, screaming, miserable, hungry and hurting DS. I'm only glad that I did not have 3 others to look after.

A couple of things stand out to me.

1. The minister appears to have a worrying grasp of biology. In her post at 13.18 she suggests many families have 4 children in the under 2 age group. Unless they had 2 sets of twins, triplets and a single or quads I suggest that this would be physically impossible as pregnancy takes 9 months. I certainly don't know any familes that fit this criteria. A little worrying that our education minister has trouble multiplying 9 by 4

1. If parents have to pay for the agencies how will this cut costs? Are the agencies effectively just going to be a new and rather expensive quango type organisation. I'm a little unclear as to their function or their funding.

1. There does not seem to anything in the new plans to ensure that nurseries won't simply up their ratios but not decrease their fees. I am really concerned that this could open the door to a whole new low quality group of nurseries without any savings to parents. Alternatively nurseries may decrease their fees but they are not supermarkets do we really want a pack it high sell it cheap brand of child care?

Think WaitingForPancakeDay sums it up:
"I loathe the idea of my DD competing for attention due to increased ratios. However, what I find the most terrifying is the idea of my little DD being 1 of 6 toddlers being led out of the burning building by 1 nursery worker. 1 of 6 children at risk of not being noticed silently choking, 1 of 6 children at risk of being harmed by another child because the nursery worker had his/her hands full while my child was being bitten, 1 of 6 children.

1 of 6. Thats bananas and makes me massively uncomfortable. No qualification in the world makes you better at looking after 6 toddlers. "

It's a no-brainer isn't it? Which would you pick: your 9 month old baby can be ignored by a graduate, or he/she can be cuddled by a non-graduate?

We could decide every childcare worker needs a degree, a PhD, a Nobel bleeding prize, and it still wouldn't make them able to bend space and time to give a baby more 1:1 attention than someone looking after fewer babies.

She repeatedly ignored suggestions that nurseries won't pass on the benefit in the shape of reduced fees. They plainly have no notion of ensuring that - and why would they? It's a Tory government. They love business screwing as much out of people as they can.

Please can someone point me in the direction of someone who is experienced and expert at forming high-quality attachments with 4 children aged under 1 simultaneously, whilst meeting all their physical needs?

Also, please can someone provide a link to the qualification that someone needs to obtain to enable them to do this?

I still do to understand how little tiny children will get enough cuddles with the proposed ratio changes . I think it's hard enough to achieve with 3 babies under one to one adult...

Crikey..that was a disappointing thread.Feel v cross and sad.Nursing decided to go for degree level etc...excluded many of the empathetic caring people that could be great nurses.Agree nursery workers should be paid more but all this looks like a recipe for disaster.

Reading through this makes me want to cry. I've just got back from a ten hour day teaching 4 and 5 year olds and I'm on my knees. I've got a couple of degrees and compared to all the childminders out there I'm very well paid, but does that help me on a day to day basis manage the needs of 30 children? Of course it bloody doesn't. Small children need lots of adults, and that's all there is to it. Thanks for not listening Ms Truss.

Well I'm just baffled. I'm a qualified management accountant too, but I can't for the life of me do the sums that enable a childcare worker to manage 6 toilet training children and not spend all day in the loo, purely by dint of her superior qualifications.

Well at least the children will be familiar with the number 2.

If they had to make a u turn on their e bac qualification or whatever it was, because the majority of mp's and all advisors were against it, can they push this through?

Storm I had 3 under 15 months-it was bloody difficult and I spent countless hours feeling gutted at what they missed out on compared to other toddlers.

I was a primary teacher with a degree in early years and literacy pre children.

Get someone on news night to ask Cameron one obvious question repeatedly. It would be v uncomfortable.

E.g exactly how does one person simultaneously adequately care for four babies under 1?

Ignor all bullshit answers and repeat like broken record. Neither he nor Mrs Truss will be able to answer it, because there is no good answer.