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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Live webchat with postnatal depression counsellor, Liz Wise, Tuesday 17th April, 1pm

154 replies

RachelMumsnet · 14/04/2012 12:59

Liz Wise is joining us on Tuesday 17 April between 1 and 2pm. She was introduced to us as a possible webchat guest by a mumsnetter who described how she'd 'changed her life'. Liz is a specialist postnatal depression counsellor who has been supporting mothers with PND for the past fifteen years, Having had severe PND after both her children, she has a great deal of personal and professional experience. Liz is also the PND co-ordinator for the National Childbirth Trust and sits on the committee for The Association for Postnatal Illness. She has also produced the popular DVD, Understanding Postnatal Depression.

Postnatal depression affects approximately 20% of mothers in the UK and can be a very isolating and frightening condition. Around 10% of fathers experience paternal depression. Symptoms include, low mood, anxiety, exhaustion, inability to look forward to or enjoy anything and sometimes irrational thoughts. It is temporary condition which can be helped by the right support and/or treatment. Join the discussion on Tuesday at 1pm or send questions in advance to Liz here. For more information about postnatal depression see www.postnataldepression.com.

OP posts:
swallowedAfly · 17/04/2012 13:42

there isn't any difference - it's just a label to identify a link to becoming a mum and the year thereafter. i think it's misleading and invisibilises questions of what is it about women's experiences around mothers in the context of western society that is causing them to develop depression.

the PN prefix suggests it's organically connected to the physiological experience of pregnancy and something other whereas for most it is clinical depression plain and simple that happens to have come on after becoming a mum and has the same indicators and contributory factors as any depression - re: isolation, loss of status, trauma, lots of change, sleep deprivation, changes in relationships etc etc etc. so it is the social nature of birth and early motherhood that is the issue not something inside women's bodies imo.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:43

@StrangerintheHouse

How can we untangle the fact that having pnd or ptsd/anxiety makes you lose your grip on reality so that it is hard to tell whether your fears about admitting to how you feel (eg they will take my baby away, people will think I don't love my baby and I'm a bad mother) are in proportion or are actually part of the problem.

(Hope that makes some kind of sense, I should be asleep!)

It is a fact that when you have PND it is sometimes difficult to untangle what are usual fears ? everything seems blown out of proportion with PND and you can feel quite irrational. The best way of dealing with this is to be able to talk openly to someone you trust and someone who understands about PND, be it your GP, health visitor, a counsellor, friend etc. I have supported hundreds of women over the years and have never known anyone have their baby taken away due to PND. Health professionals want to keep families together not separate them.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:43

@MrsMicawber

Hi,

Thank you so much for doing this webchat. I had PND with my oldest quite severely, and as a result my husband was my son's main caregiver. I did not spend extended periods alone with him until he was 14/15 months old. I have a terrible feeling of needing to make up for lost time with him now that I am healthy trying to reassure him that I am 100% commited to meeting his needs even though I didn't when he was a baby.

How can I get past this feeling and do I need to be worried about 'loving him too much' and pushing him away? as in these feelings of inadequacy are mine, essentially selfish feelings. Are they harmful to him though?

You certainly don't need to be worried about loving him too much. I don't think you can ever give a child too much love. He won't remember that time when you weren't caring for him, although you will. Those feelings of guilt will fade. REMEMBER, you were ill and these feelings weren't your fault. They will not do him any harm.

I myself didn't bond with my elder daughter until she was 14 months old, these months were a total blur for me. She is now 26 and we are so close, she knows all about my PND and my lack of love for her at the time. She has no memories of it and it has not affected her at all. Please let me reassure you that the further away you get from your depression, the easier these feelings will be to deal with.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 17/04/2012 13:46

I wonder if "maternal depression" would be a better term (though I guess PND is widely known now) - but just to give more emphasis to the tremendous social and personal changes a woman experiences as she becomes responsible for caring for a young baby ?

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:48

@BellaBoo85

Plain and simply, how do you get over it when the guilt won't go away?? The way I see it, it's always going to be there because of how (I think) it started. And if I'd not had that one particular thought/feeling then none of it would've happened. And that thought isn't just going to disappear. Even if one day I don't believe it anymore, there was a day when I did. And that is what I can't get out of my head.

I never thought that I would ever get over the dreadful guilt I felt about not being able to feel love for my first daughter. However, the further away you get from your PND the guilt feelings will get much easier and more often than not go. The depression sometimes hooks itself on to ?if I hadn?t thought/felt that, then it wouldn?t have happened?, however it is the depression that makes you feel that. It may also be that having some cognitive behavioural therapy may help with these thoughts.

swallowedAfly · 17/04/2012 13:50

juggling i agree and their are researchers etc who choose to use the term maternal depression instead because of the difference it makes to how you then look at it, identify causes and seek to address it as a 'social' problem rather than just an individual woman's problem.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:50

@SeverePNI

Is there enough support for those experiencing very severe PNI, and who are MBU beds actually for? From reading the boards on here these places seem to only be available to mothers experiencing PN psychosis rather than severe depression.

My background to this question is that I was suicidal through my PND at the end of January and felt unsafe at home. My baby was 7.5m and BF. I asked for the Crisis Team to look into an MBU place for me; they never did. There is no unit in our area and I believe it was too expensive/too difficult and the fact that I am alone with my children and wouldn't do anything with them in the house was "used" by the team to keep me safe. Since then I have had a second suicidal episode, am habitually self harming and am possibly developing an eating disorder; these latter two were only just starting to manifest when I asked to be admitted and I believe would have been nipped in the bud by intensive intervention then. I did not even see a psychiatrist until the end of March.

Is this scenario sadly common in severe cases?

There are beds at some MBU for mums with PND not just postnatal psychosis. I?m sorry that you feel you weren?t given the help that you needed at the time, in my experience it does vary from area to area.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:51

@PinkFondantFancy

I'd like to reiterate puddlejumper's question. I have had very broken nights for 7 months now and my mood is often very low. My GP thinks I'm 'just' tired - how can I tell the difference? Is there one anyway?

I think you would be able to tell the difference yourself. For example, are you experiencing any other symptoms apart from tiredness and low mood? Are you able to look forward to anything and are you able to enjoy anything? Tiredness is certainly a symptom of depression, but not usually on its own.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:52

@ThatllDoPig

I had pnd. It frustrates me so much that people STILL always assume that this means you don't bond with your baby. Why is there is misconception and what can be done to challenge it? For me it was the opposite. My baby was perfect and wonderful, but I felt I couldn't protect her from this shitty world.

I know I feel that too. It is a myth that if you have PND you don?t bond or love your baby. Many mums I work with have no problems with bonding even though they have PND. Unfortunately for some mums the severity of their depression doesn?t allow them to feel the bonding or feelings of love for their baby. However, as the depression lifts the feelings will start to emerge.

designerbaby · 17/04/2012 13:52

Hi Liz,
So great that this discussion is taking place. I had PND following a traumatic birth of my first daughter, but although symptoms were there from very early on, things didn't escalate until I stopped breastfeeding when my DD1 was five months old.

Despite showing the full range of symptoms including obsessive behaviour and thoughts, suicidal thoughts (I'd planned how and when I would overdose do as not to disrupt DD1s routine - "sorry DD, your Mum's dead, but at least Your nap time wasn't disturbed" goes to show how ad things had got), hysteria, despair and anxiety when my (lovely) HV got me a GP referral I was told that he didn't think I was depressed, just stressed and tired and that I should "try and get some sleep". When referred back twice more by an outraged HV I just got a repeat diagnosis plus some hostility because I was "wasting their time". Apparently because my DD was five months old, not a newborn it "couldn't" be PND.

My HV got in touch with my husband and we managed to sort out counselling privately and I got through it (by the skin of my teeth). It was a long, hard road though, and I think ADs would have helped both ease and shorten the process. Had I not had a supportive husband and the funds to go private, I honestly don't think I'd be here now.

Are GPs routinely given training on how to diagnose PND? If a patient or HV can't get help through this avenue where else can they turn? Are there NHS/funded services that can be accessed without having to go through a GP referral? If so, are HVs aware if them? Mine was brilliant, visited me every other day and called me daily to check I was ok, and even she seemed to draw a bit of a blank when the GP failed spectacularly to diagnose/treat.

It didn't seem like there was another avenue...
Thanks,
db

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:52

@FourYolksAche

Do you think the crap postnatal care women receive in hospital (very frequently bemoaned on MN) is a cause of PND?

I was v close to having some kind of breakdown on that bloody ward until DH got me out of there.

I think there are various different factors that contribute to PND and never just one on its own. Poor postnatal care may be one of them alongside other factors.

swallowedAfly · 17/04/2012 13:53

basically it is contentious to call it pnd. if you noted that teachers were more inclined to depression you'd say hmm what is it about teaching that contributes to causing depression and how can we make structural changes? if you call mothers getting depression depression you have to do the same. calling it PND denies that usual way of looking at phenomena and depoliticises the issue if that makes sense - it becomes your problem not a societal one.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:53

@JugglingWithTangentialOranges

I wonder if "maternal depression" would be a better term (though I guess PND is widely known now) - but just to give more emphasis to the tremendous social and personal changes a woman experiences as she becomes responsible for caring for a young baby ?

Hi JWTO,

I think maternal depression may be different to PND, as 'post-natal' is a short period after the birth. However 'maternal' implies that the depression is ongoing.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:54

@Kveta

my mother is pretty sure she had undiagnosed PND after the birth of my younger sister - she remembers crying a lot, and trying to kill me (a toddler at the time) by beating me, throwing me in the cot too hard, at one point getting a knife out and seriously planning to use it. My sister was labelled a Failure to thrive baby, and didn't bfeed well, which mum reckons exacerbated it, and the local HV did nothing to help.

This has had 2 consequences that I can see - firstly, my sister and I DO NOT get on (and I have a somewhat prickly relationship with my parents), and secondly, I am now terrified that history will repeat itself when I have my second child in a few weeks time. I have previous history of reactive depression following sexual assault as a teen (nothing to do with parents!), so know I am prone to depression. my mother and grandmothers have all been warning me and DH to look out for it, and spent much of my older child's early life watching me like a hawk for signs of depression, which was fun... (as it was, I was never happier than after he was born!!)

So my questions are - how can my mum begin to get over this, when it was pretty clearly not 'her', it was a medical condition - she still beats herself up for my sister having various health problems nearly 30 years later, and is so overprotective of sister it's damaging her relationships with me and other younger siblings. and question 2 (sorry!) how can I avoid the same thing happening to me?

(apologies for such a personal question, I understand a single post here cannot a life time problems solve!)

Hi Kveta, How awful for your mother ? perhaps it would help her to have some counselling to talk through her feelings about this and to relieve her guilt. She could contact her GP for a referral. It sounds as if you are very self aware and aware of signs and symptoms which is excellent. The fact that you were fine after your first child is very encouraging. Talking about your feelings, getting as much rest as possible, eating well and exercise can all be helpful. Please feel free to email me if you would like any more information.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:55

@AnAirOfHope

PND affects the whole family but its only the woman that gets counciling. What can be done to "mend" the family as a whole? or at least consider it when the women is ready.

I see mums and dads together or separately depending on their needs. Most GP?s would be willing to refer a family for counselling if they think necessary. You are very right in what you say about the woman needing to be ready to address this, as she won?t be strong enough to do so when in the depths of her depression.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:56

@StrawberrytallCAKE

Are there any measures that you think a woman can take during pregnancy that may lessen the chances of pnd occuring?

I think awareness of how your feeling is key as well as putting support systems in place. Such as having someone that you can really talk about your feelings to, trying to rest as much as possible, eating a good diet little and often, exercise within reason, and not having too high expectations of labour, birth and motherhood.

JugglingWithTangentialOranges · 17/04/2012 13:58

Responding to Pink Fondant though - I think sometimes we need someone else to support us in seeking help and support and recognising that something is wrong and that with that support things could get better. All the best PFF - perhaps you could get a second opinion from another doctor or seek advice from a health visitor if you find your GP's response unsatisfactory ?

Barklouder · 17/04/2012 13:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:58

@designerbaby

Hi Liz, So great that this discussion is taking place. I had PND following a traumatic birth of my first daughter, but although symptoms were there from very early on, things didn't escalate until I stopped breastfeeding when my DD1 was five months old.

Despite showing the full range of symptoms including obsessive behaviour and thoughts, suicidal thoughts (I'd planned how and when I would overdose do as not to disrupt DD1s routine - "sorry DD, your Mum's dead, but at least Your nap time wasn't disturbed" goes to show how ad things had got), hysteria, despair and anxiety when my (lovely) HV got me a GP referral I was told that he didn't think I was depressed, just stressed and tired and that I should "try and get some sleep". When referred back twice more by an outraged HV I just got a repeat diagnosis plus some hostility because I was "wasting their time". Apparently because my DD was five months old, not a newborn it "couldn't" be PND.

My HV got in touch with my husband and we managed to sort out counselling privately and I got through it (by the skin of my teeth). It was a long, hard road though, and I think ADs would have helped both ease and shorten the process. Had I not had a supportive husband and the funds to go private, I honestly don't think I'd be here now.

Are GPs routinely given training on how to diagnose PND? If a patient or HV can't get help through this avenue where else can they turn? Are there NHS/funded services that can be accessed without having to go through a GP referral? If so, are HVs aware if them? Mine was brilliant, visited me every other day and called me daily to check I was ok, and even she seemed to draw a bit of a blank when the GP failed spectacularly to diagnose/treat.

It didn't seem like there was another avenue...
Thanks,
db

Hi designerbaby,

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a dreadful lack of support for your PND. As with any other profession, GPs and health visitors do vary and I think I would have been tempted to ask to see another GP. However, I know when you're depressed, trying to be assertive can be virtually impossible. To be told that because your DD was 5 months old, it couldn't be PND, is outrageous. PND can manifest itself months after delivery.

I am aware that GPs are routinely given training on post-natal depression. However if there are no answers from the health visitor or GP, I would be tempted to change my GP practice and go somewhere else. It is quite unusual for a health visitor and GP not to offer any support. I'm so glad that you got it from your HV. I do hope you're well now.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 13:59

@thunksheadontable

Hi

I am 32 weeks pregnant with my second child and slowly coming to terms with the fact that I have mental health issues related to pregnancy and the postpartum period.

I will be very interested in what you have to say about the medicalisation of PND and how it lays the causes for maternal distress in chemical/hormonal imbalances in the mother with little apparent public recognition of the role of past experience and current social support. The preventative side seems totally absent, is this true in lots of cases?

I think my case is probably pretty typical. I grew up in a chaotic abusive (yet solidly middle-class) home with a cruel alcoholic father and a distant, neglectful mother. I have a pretty typical psychological profile of a first-born child from this type of background: I am ultra-high achieving, perfectionistic and relentlessly self-critical with a deep sense of shame and the idea I am responsible for just about everything in the world. I've had counselling/therapy on and off and more or less manage really functionally but in pregnancy my defences lower and my desire for control and certainty, plus tendency to see threat in anything I can't control, goes haywire.

There is also a family history of mood disorders, puerperal psychosis and PND.

I had antenatal OCD and depression in my first pregnancy but never sought help. All was well during labour and birth (for which I prepared as if it were a marathon) until the second stage, when my large post-dates induced baby got stuck and there was a panic and brutal rotational forceps delivery. In a state of absolute horror at his birth and how I had "failed", I went into an anxiety state and remember nothing of his first 72 hours apart from brief, brutal flashes of an incredibly nasty midwife who basically did her best to humiliate everyone on our ward (e.g. "what do you mean it hurts? Silly girl, of course it hurts, if you think this is the least pain you will feel as a mother you are very naive indeed").

Cue a very typical story of the inevitable breastfeeding problems following this type of birth leading to "intervention" from the NHS which consisted of asking me to feed 10-12 times every 24 hours, expressing and refeeding after every one: baby losing weight, immense sense of failure, battling on regardless. Distressed, hungry baby screaming 24-7. No family support other than my husband (we live abroad). No friends available (none had kids, all drifted very fast after giving initial gifts etc). A deep snowfall combined with severe postnatal perineal trauma which meant I couldn't walk also kept me housebound for nearly 7 weeks as I couldn't drive....

It's hardly rocket science that in these circumstances, and with a history that makes me prone to anxiety and depression, I started to slide... and it's hardly amazing that now, at 32 weeks pregnant, my anxiety levels about after the birth are sky-high.

And yet, despite having a label of moderate OCD and depression, there is NO plan for my labour. I have had health professional after health professional try to terrify me with stories of how badly wrong an elective section could go (despite never asking for one) and I have had several almost promise me a wonderful, calm second birth (which they can't, and shouldn't).. I had the supervisor of midwives say "listen you may think you are, but you're clealry not one of the mad ones" Hmm. There is no CBT available despite NICE guidelines and my initial referral to the Perinatal Mental Health team happening at 6 WEEKS PREGNANT.

I just feel that the chances of a recurrence of PND/PN-OCD etc are absolutely MASSIVE and that there's good awareness that it might be worse this time.. and yet the whole approach is, well, let's wait and see. Go on the meds. We will just let you labour the same as any other woman despite the fact you are terrified and anxious and that doesn't augur well for your delivery, and despite the fact a poor delivery might psychologically damage me further. It's very much hands-off and "watchful waiting" just to see do I totally and utterly lose it. It's also very frustrating to have been asking for help to avoid a recurrence for this whole pregnancy and to have nothing more in place a few weeks ahead of the birth other than a handful of antidepressants. There must surely be more cost-effective ways of preventing mental health dysfunction than just letting people at it because they aren't in a total heap (yet).

I would love someone to help me plan my birth without trying to terrify me. If only they realised the extent to which I live in terror every day.. a cs is nothing in comparison but they have now successfully added it to my list of things to freak out and obsess about so that I feel totally out of control thinking of having to birth this child. Great planning, NHS.

Yes I don?t think there is a huge amount of preventative support around apart from what I have mentioned above. Howver if you have had PND before you should be given some extra support by your GP, midwife and possibly a referral to a counsellor and or the community mental health team if necessary. I would really like to see antenatal screening for every woman to assess their risk of PND as we do know that past experiences and their current social circumstances can certainly be risk factors for PND. From your description of your childhood and family history yes you may have been more at risk for PND and certainly the very traumatic birth you endured and a lot of other factors you have described. To be totally honest sometimes there is nothing you can do to prevent a reoccurrence, however as mentioned before putting support in place may well help. In your case you say you have no family support of friends to talk to about this so I feel that if you and your husband could try and insist on having some form of prenatal counselling. Have you told your GP? /midwife how terrified you are feeling? I have known many women have severe PND after their first child and have had no PND with subsequent babies. I wish you all the best.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 14:01

@Brandnewbrighttomorrow

Thunksheadontable no wonder you're stressed! I've had three sections, one emergency following 35 hour labour and two elective. I think if you are that anxious about a natural delivery then an elective cs would make complete sense. It's much calmer than an emergency section, you can plan childcare for your older child and express a preference for various factors like type of anaesthetic (I'd recommend a combined spinal/epidural) discovering sex of the baby, skin to skin contact. You can find out which consultants and midwives are on for your date and express a preference for who you get. All helps to make you feel a bit more in control of the process. It's likely to take longer to recover physically though.

I'm reading with interest to see what the response is to where does normal reaction to becoming a parent end and pnd begin.

Thank you for your very helpful response to thunksheadontable. I think the line between normal reactions to becoming a parent and PND is in how the Mum is feeling in herself. Most of us have anxieties adjusting to becoming a parent but not all of us have symptoms of depression, eg, low mood, inability to sleep( although the baby is sleeping), obsessive thoughts, panic attacks which affect the day to day life of someone who is depressed. I use two questions when supporting mums with PND are you able to look forward to anything and are you enjoying anything? If these are both answered with a no then discussion around other feelings and thoughts needs to take place. There are mums that have similar thoughts and feelings as mums with PND but they are not causing problems for them and they are able to look forward to and enjoy things. I hope that answers your question?

LizWise · 17/04/2012 14:04

@abdc

Given that this is such a common condition, why is there not more Antenatal support for women? With a history of depression I know I am predisposed to PND, and was questioned closely by my mw at booking in. This was very reassuring at the time but since then it seems to have just been lip service - there is no actual Help that the mw can point me in the direction of. I believe I have since experienced antenatal depression, but just been told to see my gp, who I think just sees me as another hormonal pregnant woman and dismisses my anxieties. A ten min appointment is not enough time to discuss the extent of my anxieties and feelings, and so it builds up and gets worse when what I want is someone to talk to - why are there no counselling or helpline type services? Surely this could help some women to not go on to develop such severe pnd or at least know where to get help. Depression is not just tiredness, it is a mindset rut and I believe that antenatal support would help postnatally.

Yes I totally agree with you, see my reply to thunksheadonthetable. I really don?t know why there aren?t any counselling services offered for this and I would certainly like to see these in place as well as more counselling support for PND. I?m sure this could be very useful as a preventative measure.

swallowedAfly · 17/04/2012 14:04

bark - things like the nature of the isolated nuclear family, the fact that all the responsibility falls on the woman solo (no paternity leave), the exhaustion of doing it in isolation without the support of extended family, the loss of status and identity incurred by giving up work (for those who do), the level of pressure put on mothers about who they are supposed to be/what to feel/what is a 'good' mother etc incurring guilt and shame in those who can't fit it, economic stress, poor post natal care and no opportunity to rest (women used to be kept in hospital and in other cultures women get special support in the weeks following birth so they can recover physically and mentally) etc etc etc.

not saying that everybody would have these factors or that all depression would be due to them and others - some depression that occurs immediately after birth may well be to do with hormones but like with all depression there is the environmental triggers and set ups that can cause a susceptibility to develop illness.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 14:05

@bjf1

Hi Liz my question is, if untreated, can PND and even pre natal depression, just stay with a woman for the rest of her life? Is it possible that a mother can still be suffering from this 10 years or more after the birth of a child? Or, over time, does it sort of dissipate of it's own accord?

That really depends on the individual and own circumstances. I have met women in their 50?s and 60?s that say they had PND that was not treated or supported and they have gone on to sometimes have more depressive episodes. However I have also met women that have not had any treatment/ support and they have made total recoveries. In my experience mums that have it recognised and treated/ supported recover quicker and more fully, it?s like any trauma we go through, sometimes if we suppress it and don?t deal with it at the time, it can resurface later on in life. I have worked with many mums that had PND first time that was not recognised and resolved, have felt better during their next pregnancy then have PND, this is quite common.

LizWise · 17/04/2012 14:06

@Shakey1500

LIZ, I'd also be interested in the answer to bjf1's question.

I am certain I had PND but did not go to my GP (I'd had a bad mental breakdown the year before and the counselling I received after being discharged from the psychiatric hospital was utterly appalling so I had/have zero faith). My son is now 4, is it still possible to have PND? How is it differentiated from "depression"?

Thanks

It may be that you are still experiencing some depression left over from your PND if it was never totally resolved. The difference between PND and depression is the timing of it; PND is a depressive episode after childbirth which usually is isolated and temporary. Usually after a couple of years if having being treated and supported the depression will be better. It may be a good idea for you to talk this through with your GP if you haven?t done already so you can get some support.

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