Live webchat with Shami Chakrabarti, Director of Liberty, Wednesday 4th May, 12pm - 1pm

[KatieMumsnet]

Shami Chakrabarti has been director of Liberty (The National Council for Civil Liberties) since September 2003. She became heavily involved in its engagement with the 'War on Terror', and with the defence and promotion of human rights values in Parliament, the Courts and wider society.

We're delighted that Shami is our guest on Mumsnet from 12-1pm tomorrow, to answer your questions, including the right to peaceful protest, the human rights implications of the 'war on terror', privacy, the rights of vulnerable minorities and the Human Rights Act.

So, we're very pleased to say Shami is now in the building and surrounded by appetising nibbles, so we'll be off shortly.

Hello Shami -
I have lost faith in the police, having seen how brutally some of them treated our students, pre Christmas (also, the Ian Tomlinson killing highlights what a public menace they can be.)

Can you explain roughly how a complaint against the police is processed?

Hello Shami and welcome to Mumsnet.

How much do you think that the civil rights movement in UK is hindered by Murdoch's right wing press - it must be incredibly difficult, for instance, to fight for the rights of asylum seekers when the Daily Mail runs story after story about immigrants living the life of Reilly in luxury houses.

Hello everyone. Its a real pleasure to be here on Mumsnet. Mums are us!

@dawntigga

Won't be here tomorrow but here's my question.

Please bear in mind there is very little that Liberty gets involved with that I disagree with, but how do you personally reconcile supporting civil liberties that will allow people to escape justice like the DNA records kept by the police even if the person isn't found guilty?

BTW I wholeheartedly agree with not keeping DNA records for people who aren't convicted (and only for the life of the sentence for all convicted of everything except sexually related crimes), but I'm very conflicted. Somebody I know was found guilty from DNA submitted on an unrelated offence (which he was never prosecuted with). What he was found guilty of is an awful crime, somebody else had been found guilty and subsequently found innocent due to better forensic techniques. He totally deserves to rot for the rest of his life in jail for the crime he committed but would never have been caught without the submitted DNA.

StillTryingToSquareThisForMyselfTiggaxx

Thanks for your support Dawntigga and for raising a very common and understandable question. DNA retention (and nearly all personal privacy questions) has to be about proportionality and balance. On the one hand, DNA evidence can be a vital method of convicting the guilty and exculpating the wrongly accused. On the other hand, this is incredibly intimate material and the bigger the database, the greater the risk of abuse by accident or design. Recent years have shown how vulnerable massive databases are to hacking and error and it will not serve the criminal justice system if DNA evidence is ever called into question because of human or database error. Liberty suggests that a proportionate database would contain the DNA profile of anyone convicted of a relevant offence (eg. violence, sexual and burglary). These are offences that are both serious enough to warrant permanent retention (ie not leaving a cigarette but in the street) and offences to which DNA is relevant (ie- DNA is not going to help with computer fraud). People who are arrested under suspicion of new offences (eg on the basis of witness evidence or CCTV etc etc) would continue to have their DNA taken in the police station but it would be destroyed if the police decided not to pursue an investigation or if they were found not guilty by a court. In the case of sex offences (which are especially difficult to prove and where there is a disproportionate attrition rate), we would suggest waiting for a longer period before the destruction of the DNA (to account for vulnerable witnesses dropping out and/or new witnesses coming forward). I donít know about the particular case you describe but historic cases where the wrong person was convicted through a lack of DNA and other forensic technology would decrease over time. The other point to remember is that into the future, as long as there is any basis for arresting a person on reasonable suspicion of a relevant offence (eg witness evidence- as in most cases of sex or violence), there would be a basis for taking DNA on arrest and comparing it with crime scenes. There would also be a database of all relevant convicted offenders and all in all, these databases would be all the safer for being smaller and more tightly managed.

@MmeLindt

Hello Shami and welcome to Mumsnet.

How much do you think that the civil rights movement in UK is hindered by Murdoch's right wing press - it must be incredibly difficult, for instance, to fight for the rights of asylum seekers when the Daily Mail runs story after story about immigrants living the life of Reilly in luxury houses.

Hi MmeLindt (another chocolate lover?) Of course I sometimes get frustrated with the lack of fairness and balance about human rights in parts of the media and politics. But at the end of the day I have a great deal of faith in the common sense and decency of people here in the world's unbroken democracy. Buying a particular newspaper doesn't mean you sign up to all its views. Also broadcasting and mumsnetting is a great way to get a fairer more direct hearing with the public.

@LittleOneMum

This is my question:

How do you reconcile your seemingly serious role with your endless appearances in Sunday supplements, discussing frivolous subjects? You seem to be more famous than the organisation you represent!

You're damned if you do or don't LittleOneMum. I'm usually criticised for being grim and humourless so frivolity is a new one for me! Seriously though, Liberty is a small organisation (25 staff), a small budget (£1.5 million p.a) and a massive campaigning job to do. We can't afford lots of paid advertising like rich charities and pressure groups so we have to take opportunities to engage with the news media in order to get our messages across. I've turned down lots of reality TV though. You really wouldn't want to see me dancing or cooking.

@dotnet

Hello Shami -
I have lost faith in the police, having seen how brutally some of them treated our students, pre Christmas (also, the Ian Tomlinson killing highlights what a public menace they can be.)

Can you explain roughly how a complaint against the police is processed?

Don't lose all faith dotnet. As with any group of people there are some good, kind and professional souls in the police who are keen to learn lessons from disastrous past mistakes in public order policing. Complaints are handled by the IPCC which also needs to up its game in terms of winning and keeping public confidence.

Re. the answer to DawnTigga's question about DNA: haven't a couple of rapists been finally brought to trial because of DNA samples that were being held on unrelated charges (not convictions)? Wouldn't the system you propose prevent such cross-referencing of samples from unconvicted rapists? After all, more than 90% of rapes go unpunished, so there are a lot of unconvicted rapists out there. What about the civil liberties of the women and children concerned?

@Lilymaid

Is there any occasion when obtaining information via torture can lead to a greater good (topically, the capture and killing of bin Laden and whether vital information was obtained by torture from a Guantanamo Bay prisoner)?

Whatever the short-term temptations, torture will never lead to a 'greater good' in the long term because it undermines everything we stand for as decent human beings who support the rule of law. It blurs the distinction between democrats on the one hand and tyrants and terrorists on the other.

@casbie

i love it when your on telly - a woman with a brain - refreshing!

do we still have the law that enables the police to take you off the streets and lock you up without due representation? i kind of got lost in the arguments, what is the law right now?

Thanks Casbie and yes, I am ashamed to say that we still have punishment without charge or trial in the form of "control orders" in this country. These orders allow the Home Secretary to put people under house arrest or internal exile forever on the basis of secret intelligence that they and their lawyers will never see without any prospect of a criminal charge or trial.

Both coalition parties were bitterly opposed to this policy in opposition but appear to be changing their tune in Government. Britain needs to set a better example to younger democracies and non-democracies about fighting terrorism within the Rule of Law.

Hi Shami, another admirer here of your non-ranty and common sense approach to libertarian issues.
I also admire your ability to remain calm in the face of inane questionning and/or incredibly emotive issues; what's your secret, and has there ever been a situation which has provoked you to lose your cool with an interviewer?

Thanks

Thanks for the answer, Shami. Not so much a chocolate lover, rather an expat in Switzerland.

Can I ask a follow up question?

How important is twitter/blogging to your campaigns?

blimey - that's shocking it's still 'legal' to do so!

@ilovemydogandMrObama

There has been discussion about the lack of legal basis in which the US apprehended Bin Laden. Was there any legal justification for doing so, as my understanding is that there was not a mandate and that the 'war on terror' isn't a specific jurisdiction i.e. at war with Pakistan.

Lastly, the Conservative government is reviewing the UK's obligations to the ECHR with some suggesting that the UK will simply pull out. Isn't this a condition per the Treaty of Rome for all member states?

There has been discussion about the legal basis in which the US apprehended Bin Laden. Was there any legal justification for doing so, as my understanding is that there was not a mandate and that the 'war on terror' isn't a specific jurisdiction i.e. at war with Pakistan.
Lastly, the Conservative government is reviewing the UK's obligations to the ECHR with some suggesting that the UK will simply pull out. Isn't this a condition per the Treaty of Rome for all member states?
Thereís no doubt in my mind that Bin Laden was a heinous criminal and that there was ample evidence to attempt to arrest him. Whilst I am no expert, my understanding is that the status in international law of US forces going into Pakistan turns on the nature of any consensual agreement between the two Governments allowing US forces permission to operate within that jurisdiction. Reports since the Presidential announcement suggest that the Pakistani Government is not arguing that its sovereignty has been violated and seems to have allowed the US to conduct operations of this kind on its soil.

I agree that there is a legal requirement for EU member states to respect Human Rights and that this is obviously understood to include compliance with the ECHR. Even more importantly, its surely morally and politically unthinkable for the worldís oldest unbroken democracy (that was so instrumental in drafting the ECHR and promoting it in post-war Europe) to pull out of a Convention on no torture or slavery, free speech, fair trials and personal privacy etc.

Hi Shami.

There is a right to life contained in the Human Rights Act, do you believe that there should be a right to a dignified death? I've cared for patients that have been terminally ill, they have suffered and died in pain, knowing that they will die in this most undignified way regardless. Terry Pratchett is an advocate for the right to decide, can you see the UK accepting this and incorporating it into legislation?

@Pram1nTheHall

Re. the answer to DawnTigga's question about DNA: haven't a couple of rapists been finally brought to trial because of DNA samples that were being held on unrelated charges (not convictions)? Wouldn't the system you propose prevent such cross-referencing of samples from unconvicted rapists? After all, more than 90% of rapes go unpunished, so there are a lot of unconvicted rapists out there. What about the civil liberties of the women and children concerned?

To try and clarify Pram1nTheHall, if you've been arrested and charged (but not convicted) of a sex offence, I am suggesting that the DNA should be kept for a longer period than in relation to other offences (to deal with the high attrition rate and serious protection issues you point out). If you have been properly convicted of an "unrelated offence" or are currently charged with one (eg awaiting trial) you would remain on the database.

But I don't think it is acceptable to keep a database (as now) of everyone who has ever been arrested for anything regardless of whether they have ever been charged or convicted. It would be fairer and less discriminatory (though completely disproportionate and unmanageable) to hold the DNA of every man, woman and child in the country and I don't think that anyone could sensibly propose that.

@MmeLindt

Thanks for the answer, Shami. Not so much a chocolate lover, rather an expat in Switzerland.

Can I ask a follow up question?

How important is twitter/blogging to your campaigns?

We're still learning but I think its becoming more important.

Hi Shami, what will you be voting in the AV referendum and why?

Thanks for the reply about the IPCC handling complaints against the police -but it's the nuts and bolts of the process I'm curious about. Does someone come to the complainant's home to interview them - does the complainant have to go to a central point attended also by the person being complained against, whereupon there's some sort of mini-trial - or is everything looked at via correspondence? I know this all probably sounds extremely naive, - but as you can gather, I haven't the faintest idea about how the process would typically go on, and I'd really like to know. Thanks.

Ah right, thanks for the clarification on DNA - that seems to be more proportionate.

@WreckoftheHesperus

Hi Shami, another admirer here of your non-ranty and common sense approach to libertarian issues.
I also admire your ability to remain calm in the face of inane questionning and/or incredibly emotive issues; what's your secret, and has there ever been a situation which has provoked you to lose your cool with an interviewer?

Thanks

Thanks so much WreckoftheHesperus. I don't always feel "non-ranty" inside but speaking for Liberty is a huge privilege and I don't want to let the values and arguments down. I don't remember really loosing my cool with an interviewer but Geoff Hoon (the former Labour MP and Minister) once really wound me up on "Question Time" with an incredibly patronising put down about my being "emotional" in my opposition to torture. A "calm down dear" moment perhaps...

@belledechocchipcookie

Hi Shami.

There is a right to life contained in the Human Rights Act, do you believe that there should be a right to a dignified death? I've cared for patients that have been terminally ill, they have suffered and died in pain, knowing that they will die in this most undignified way regardless. Terry Pratchett is an advocate for the right to decide, can you see the UK accepting this and incorporating it into legislation?

Thanks for reminding people about the right to life in the HRA belledechocchipcookie. Too many people forget that Article 2 has been vital to obtaining inquests etc when people have been let down by the authorities. I think that we have been edging towards legal recognition of the incredibly painful and dehumanising deaths forced on people without assistance (see recent court cases and guidance from the DPP). The difficulty with full-blown legislation is making sure that the vulnerable are properly protected from pressure and unlawful killing from those close to them.

Hello Shami. I've met you (several years ago) and find it very interesting how you manage to convey such certainty on so many issues given the complexity and shifting times we live in. Do you feel that the next couple of years are likely to be even more testing for civil liberties or do you feel that we will now revisit the decisions that we have taken in the past ten years?

@ByThePowerOfGreyskull

Just wanted to pop in and say thank you.

Thank you for being an eloquent educated female.
There are times I have sat with men with twisted views about the capacity of a womans mind to discuss and understand complex issues. Then you come on and they are transfixed by your opinion!

Huge thanks ByThePowerOfGreyskull (What cartoon is that from again?)