Parents use annual leave or take unpaid leave to care for sick children - new Mumsnet survey

[JuliaMumsnet]

Hello

This morning we released a survey of more than 1000 parents in partnership with Harriet Harman MP, and with input from Caroline Nokes MP, about how parents in paid work manage when their children are sick. It revealed that:

88% reported having taken time off work to care for a sick primary school aged child. Of these:

• 39% had taken holiday/annual leave
• 29% had taken paid leave
• 29% had taken unpaid leave
• 10% had reduced hours or dropped work
• 7% had taken sick leave
• 2% had left their job

Almost a third of parents (29%), and more than half of C2DE parents (52%), are taking unpaid leave to look after their children, with C2DE parents twice as likely to take unpaid leave than ABC1 parents (26%). Almost four in ten parents had taken holiday/annual leave to look after sick children. ABC1 parents were twice as likely (31%) to take paid leave to look after sick children compared to C2DE parents (15%).

The situation is even more dire for single parents, more than 90% of whom are women. Single parents were almost 60% more likely to take unpaid leave than parents living with a partner (43% compared to 27%).

12% of parents in the survey, most of whom were mothers, had reduced their hours, dropped work, or even left their job to deal with having sick children. 10% had reduced their hours or dropped work due to caring responsibilities related to caring for a sick child.

Unsurprisingly parents supported provision to be able to better manage their children’s sick days without losing pay or losing holiday time.

When asked if they would support extending statutory sick pay to cover a parent when a child of primary school or nursery age is sick, 90% of parents supported the idea, with only 6% opposing it.

More info here and our posts on Instagram here, twitter here and Facebook here.

Let us know what you think!

Thanks

MNHQ

I can’t see employers ever making paid leave for poorly children a thing. My main reason for this is that it would be abused, in the same way that sick leave and compassionate leave are.

I know it’s controversial to say but in every workplace I’ve ever had there have been not insignificant numbers of staff who treat sick leave as an extension of their annual leave and take as much as they possibly can without further action being taken. The same thing will happen with this.

It’s pretty hard to abuse the system as it is here (Sweden), as you have to give details of what’s wrong with the child (in broad terms), where the child would otherwise be (name and address of eg preschool or school), as well as inform your employer, so to try and abuse the system you’d be taking a huge risk, as they do check claims.

It’s so interesting reading this thread - one thing that seems really clear is that for paid leave to care for sick children to work in the UK, there would need to be very clear guidelines to stop managers simply expecting colleagues to pick up parents’ work without any kind of recompense in terms of money or time off in lieu. If employers are allowed to get away with just overburdening others then it would obviously lead to resentment. Union support for employees to be able to refuse extra work if it’s not within a clear framework would also be needed.

It's interesting that this is another idea that is deemed "unworkable" by many in the UK but seems to work perfectly well in other countries.

Haven't read the full thread, but do companies not offer paid special leave for circumstances like having to look after dependants/elderly parents etc? I work for the NHS and we get 10 days of paid special leave per year.

@twobarnsmammisonthebus yes o think we might be in the same place!

It is interesting seeing the replies here. Unfortunately I think the reason the system here will not work in the UK is because so many have the view of some posters here that they feel like the brunt being off with sick kids should be borne entirely by the parents. The fact is, it isn't, even if you do lump all of the onus on the parents to absorb it. It ends up with added stress or burnout, even an unpaid sick day leaves work needing covered, and the fact there are no centralised systems to deal with parents off with sick kids means it is pot luck whether the rest of the team is supported properly. All people get sick, kids included, and better systems need to be in place to cover this. Nobody baulks at the idea that they pay tax towards the nhs which provides free healthcare to under 18s. Of course not everyone has kids but every adult was once a kid and did at some point get sick and need a parent or guardian to look after them. The attitude towards childcare, routine and emergency, in the UK can be pretty disgusting, completely undervalued.

Not if I had a choice about it either. As a childless person I've done more than enough coverage in my time. A colleague's child got taken to hospital - obviously I'll cover. My boss's wife went into early labour - happy to cover. But my colleague that works three mornings a week with a son with Crohns disease and the most accident prone daughter ever - I'm covering a morning every other week. And my work is time sensitive. Do I get compensation for picking up the slack and doing the work of two people? Er, no. And now people are saying, "oh goodie, my child has a sniffle, we'll all have the day off?!! All for the good of my colleagues, of course." Well, fuck that for a game of soldiers. Give me the cold and let me have a day off. Unless you've got a mass of coverage in Sweden, do not be fooled in thinking your child free colleagues are not bothered about your absences.

Delightful.

To put the Scandinavian system into perspective. Yes, there generally is cover. And people are much more flexible if people are off. The point isn't that people with kids are getting more time off, but that everyone was once a kid and were afforded the rights of being looked after by their parents while sick. And of course the kids grown up so the ones taking time off now will not be the ones doing it so often in five years. People are generally less overworked and the workload is balanced so that things don't all fall to pieces if not everyone is working 100%. In July, most of the country shuts down. Hairdressers, many cafes, bakers, work canteens, routine medical checks, even the vending machines are not stocked in many places. And everyone takes more or less a month off. Nobody books in meetings from mid June to mid August in many sectors. Of course some sectors feel more demand, for example maternity care is more stretched over that time, and hospitality in tourist places is busy. Those people take their month or so off in June or August. I could not believe it when I first arrived. The model is so different here it is easy to see why those in the UK don't understand how people could be happy with it (and the same goes the other way). Nursery fees are also subsidised so heavily that you pay around max £200 per month for all children combined regardless of number for childcare, including both nursery setting and wraparound care at school which runs from around 7.30am to 6pm, but on a needs only basis. Conversely, no nurseries will accept children before the age of one and nursery hours for older children are significantly reduced for older siblings if one parent is on parental leave with a baby.

I have kicked myself after having stay at home because kids have had D&V and there is the 48 hour rule; if I had said I was ill I wouldn't have to use up my annual leave.

Isn’t that going to put employers off hiring women, not that they need much of an excuse.

In my experience employees usually go sick themselves, rather than take unpaid leave etc in any case. Usually during the six week summer holiday! Always leaves us thin on the ground at that time of year.

I call in sick myself and say I'm sick or I work from home , the system is flawed

When my kids were in primary I would have 4 days carers leave then use annual leave, now I have most of my leave for me which I love

Employers need to allow more home working for white collar jobs and the issues will be reduced . Only blue collar workers should be having this debate , Covid has taught us we can all work from home unless we work in a blue collar role.

This country need to mandate businesses to do more to be flexible instead of promoting coffee shops and town centres and £5 k season tickets

The issue here is expecting parents to pay the ridiculous amounts of childcare costs whilst potentially not being paid to stay at home with sick children. This is after having to already had to reduce their working hours in order to make end meets. The missing money may be the difference between being able to pay your bills and putting food on that table that month. Not whether you can have a long weekend at the bloody Peak District.
Taking annual leave to care for sick children defeats the point of annual leave entirely. So all the childless people complaining about "having to pick up the slack" and it being "unfair" if parent get paid time off - you could turn it around and say why is it fair that you get more annual leave to recharge, wind down and enjoy yourself when people with children have to use them to cover sickness of their children:
The argument of people have a choice in having children or not is not relevant here. Children are a part of our society and our future. If everyone who struggled to pay for childcare and afford sick leave decided not to have children, where would that leave us?
There is a fundamental flaw with the government supporting ordinary families with children (ordinary = aren't entitled to benefits but aren't fortunate enough to live on one salary). Parents are being pushed to the limits to perform at work and manage home life. Again, the argument of "well, they decided to have kids" is totally irrelevant and it's an ignorant way of looking at this issue. The solution is NOT not o have children.
And comparing allowances for families with children and childfree / childless people is totally unfair as the circumstances could not be further from each other.

[quote OddSockReunion]@JuliaMumsnet can I ask what the purpose of this post is? Obviously most parents would support there being paid leave to take care of sick children because that would be humane and also reduce disadvantage to women and have economic benefits, not a cost. As long as the Government funded it in full.

BUT you know who is running the UK. It seems infeasible to persuade them to do this? What will you do with the opinions from this post; will Mumsnet be backing a campaign for this to be legislated?[/quote]
Hi @OddSockReunion - this is a survey we ran after being contacted by Harriet Harman MP. She and Tory MP Caroline Nokes are working together cross-party to include this proposal - the extension statutory sick pay to cover a parent when a child of primary school or nursery age is sick - in the new Employment bill which is expected to come to Parliament in 2022. More info in this article: inews.co.uk/news/politics/harriet-harman-give-parents-paid-time-off-children-sick-mp-caroline-nokes-843091

@EdgeOfTheSky

MNHQ, you use ‘parents’ a lot in that summary, but I would very much like to see that broken down into mothers, fathers, an single parents.

Because I suspect the stats look very different for each of these groups.

From reading MN and as an employer myself I would say far more mothers take time out of work (on whatever basis) than fathers. I would like all employers to create a culture where men take equal responsibility for the sick days.

It’s hugely detrimental to women’s position in the workplace if measured to support child sickness are seen as primarily in support of women rather than all parents.

Hi @EdgeOfTheSky - we're on board with you there. The respondents were almost exclusively women so we don't have data to directly compare men and women but these figures effectively show the impact on women, which yep we all know will be higher. We thought these two quotes by mums were particularly telling:

"12% of parents in the survey, most of whom were mothers, had reduced their hours, dropped work, or even left their job to deal with having sick children. 10% had reduced their hours or dropped work due to caring responsibilities related to caring for a sick child.

“'I’m the primary carer and would take the time off anyway. I left a previous job as I wasn’t allowed time off (paid or unpaid) and had no other option.” - Mumsnet user

"I have been denied any unpaid parental leave. If it was a statutory entitlement I wouldn’t have had to leave my permanent full time job to do agency work” - Mumsnet user"

@JaninaDuszejko

It's definitely a situation where it's single parents and low earners have a much harder time. I have a colleague with 2 disabled children so they and their spouse both work PT to cover their care needs (a more equitable situation than someone having to be a SAHP). When DS was little and had regular hospital appointments DH would take a week or two of (unpaid) parental leave each year and thus freed up more annual leave for the hospital appointments but that was a choice we could easily afford, now the DC are older we can WFH when they are ill which makes it easier to return to work FT. The only colleague I can think of who took unpaid leave because they had used up all their annual leave was a single parent with an ex who at the time was refusing to do their share of the parenting, they eventually went PT to deal with this kind of situation.

Actually, that's something you haven't covered in your survey, how many parents permanently reduce their hours to care for sick children?

Hi @JaninaDuszejko - We did ask parents/mums and 10% had reduced their hours or dropped work due to caring responsibilities related to caring for a sick child.

Here are some of the quotes they gave:

• “'I’m the primary carer and would take the time off anyway. I left a previous job as I wasn’t allowed time off (paid or unpaid) and had no other option.”
• ”I have been denied any unpaid parental leave. If it was a statutory entitlement I wouldn’t have had to leave my permanent full time job to do agency work”

Thanks for your comments everyone - here are the quotes from Justine and MPs Harriet and Caroline for those asking what others countries do and about forthcoming opportunities for change:

Justine Roberts, founder and CEO of Mumsnet, said: “Most economically developed countries have a system of paid leave to provide short-term care to a sick child at home. Parents in paid work are losing desperately needed pay and holiday leave, and in the worst cases leaving work altogether to care for their sick children. Anecdotally we see on our forums that many parents have little choice but to send children into school sick, which obviously has repercussions for other pupils and school staff. The impact on workplaces of having parents who are stressed about arranging childcare and torn about their ill child shouldn't be underestimated. We need provisions in law that give parents a little bit of breathing space to care for their children.”

Harriet Harman, Labour MP and chair of Joint Committee on Human Rights said: “Public policy is completely out of date. Mothers are working now and not at home to look after a sick child. You can’t leave a young child on their own when they’re sick. But there’s no right to take time off, let alone sick pay. Of course this hits hardest at those on lower paid jobs. The forthcoming Employment Bill is our chance to insist that we put this right.”

Caroline Nokes, Conservative MP and chair of the Women and Equalities Select Committee, said: "We all knew pre pandemic the greater share of childcare responsibilities was on women, but the results of this survey are really stark. Women are carrying the economy by having to take so much leave, much of it unpaid, when children are sick or off school for other reasons. There are good fiscal reasons to support women forced to take time off in this way but also good societal reasons. It’s high time we recognised and valued this sort of invisible but vital contribution."