Could we have a MN campaign for improved Postnatal care?

[AtYourCervix]

Reading the many threads on here it appears that Postnatal care is the most frequently complained about area of the maternity service.

In-patient stays in hospital - Women feel neglected, ignored and unsupported and Postnatal visits at home are rushed and women are 'lucky' to see a midwife 3 times.

I strongly suspect that with NHS cutbacks ths is only going to get worse and I think it is not good enough.

Ideas and opinions please.

I have to say, if Mr Holly were PM, I'd have wanted him to sort a helicopter or something!

just noting a couple of posts re community midwives etc: what's the story /expectation there? when I had DS I had one visit from a midwife, I think about three days after the birth - very quick five minute visit and some form signing. Was there supposed to have been more? I could have done with some support as it happened, as didn't have any friends / family nearby and willing to visit / help and DH was away with work for most of the first month. Maybe the info sheet could include some info about expectations in that regard?

bagofholly - it's a shame you think that and it sounds like you have not had a good experience of the NCT. However, it is the largest UK charity for parents (bigger than MN) and does campaign on issues including postnatal care - from their website:

Our charitable purpose

We offer information and support in pregnancy, birth and early parenthood

We campaign to improve maternity care and ensure better services and facilities for new parents

We aim to give every parent the chance to make informed choices

This is a very big topic, not something MN can really do on their own and I would think that the NCT would be a good campaigning partner. But perhaps I am a lone voice on this!

I have worked in a hospital so no how long discharge can take. When I was being discharged I was asked to sit in the day room as they were desperate for beds. DH wasn't allowed to wait as men weren't allowed in the day room. As I had given up my bed I no longer had the crib for dd. After 4 hrs I asked one of the staff to hold dd while I went to the toilet, I just got shouted at. It was another 2 hrs before I could go to the toilet, it was very painful.

Hmmm, perhaps I'm just a bit cynical, see above posts! But I think that the NCT often have their own agenda and I'm not sure how it fits with what we are trying to achieve.

My experiences of the NCT would also lead me to the same conclusion bagofholly.

I too have had a bad experience with the NCT. The only contact I have had with members has involved them making me feel bad for having an EMCS.

I am also not impressed with the NCT.

Stranded, my experience of NCT can be summed up in one phrase - missed opportunities. They have unprecedented access to the young middle classes of the UK and appear to fail influence on real policy change. If they pitched themselves as a parenthood partner then perhaps my experienced wouldn't be the same as everyone else I know - antenatal classes and a magazine with natural births and big bras.

My local Nct teacher is a perfectly pleasant woman but utterly advocates natural birth and fails, repeatedly, to empathise with those for whom a medicalised birth is the right option for them as individuals. "Yes we cover c section and other things that go wrong" is her take on birth. Her closest colleague, broadly recognised as being a jolly good egg, sits on the local maternity liason committee, and is openly vociferous in her belief that maternal choice is a mistake, and people wouldn't chose cs/epidural if only they knew what she knew. It appals me. And her views are absolutely in line with that of NCT. Nct used to be called the Natural Childbirth Campaign and that ethos clearly lingers.

The women we are taking about here, who have had a rotten time with post natal care are disproportionately cs/intervention birth mums and/or SCBU and NICU mums. They're not women who were able to do it the Nct way. And whilst I'm sure that plenty of Nct teachers and representatives would say the organisation is there to support all women in all births, I think for many, the experience is of feeling that if you didn't do it on tens and gas alone, you'd failed in some way.

I'm sure Nct do lots of good work, but not in this area of maternal care. I'd love to be corrected.

Sorry to derail, btw.

Ok it's sad that people have that view of the NCT and it sounds like the NCT does need to do more to show women that that ISN'T what it's all about. For me, the NCT is about showing women that they have CHOICES - whatever that choice should be, and not that they have to to what they are told by the medical system. I realise, from reading other threads, that this is a very contentious issue but from my point of view the NCT is exactly about this sort of campaign.

And if it is of any interest, I am training with the NCT to be an antenatal teacher and had two elective cs's (very happily) so it's not all about natural birth. (hope I haven't outed myself there!).

My impression of the NCT is they are a very small organisation with lots of almost-uncontrolled local teachers and other local volunteers, who vary hugely. I was lucky in that my local teacher was excellent and did go into detail about caesarians and other intervention - and warned us not to expect anything from postnatal care.
Other people I know had very different experiences. And the local and national magazines really are just trying to sell overpriced crap for them and advertising 'treatments' that are a waste of money.

However, they are an influential group so it would be very helpful if they even just produced a statement saying "The NCT supports the Mumsnet campaign to improve postnatal hospital care for women", with a bit of detail.

Do you know what ladies, I am seriously concerned about the mindset of mn these days. What has started out as a campaign for better post natal care has ended (yet again) as a vitriolic rant about midwives. What a shame and what a missed opportunity. If you set up a 'them and us' mentality then you will never get what you want. Or will you? Is what you want to be looked after by nurses on a gynae ward and treated as invalids? It seems as if you have no interest in protecting normality or seeing childbirth as a normal life event.You can't stay in bed for 3 days following a section because you will get a DVT or bedsores. With a section rate of nearly 30% how can a midwife caring for 10 women bring you all your dinners, change your sheets, spend an hour helping you to hand express, bath your baby, get your painkillers, carry out daily checks on mum & baby, empty your catheters etc times 10. I routinely have to look after women in early labour as well as post natal women (some of whom, despite what you may think, are capable women who can care for themselves and their babies). It's not possible is it? I would love to know what jobs you all do that give you such a position of authority on how a midwife spends her time.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that postnatal care is the cinderella service as this is where there is less likelihood of serious harm (compared to delivery) but I cannot and will not support a thinly veiled anti-midwives campaign, bourne of ignorance and malice. Do you know what the worst part of my job is? Not the 10 hour shifts without a break, or food, limited access to the toilet, terrifying obstetric emergencies, giving myself a back injury from the hours helping women to breastfeed, having to care for women on the ward because there is no space on delivery, sorting domestic disputes, caring for victims of sexual abuse in an appropriate way, counselling women about poor antenatal results or a poor prognosis for their baby, dressing a dead baby to be cuddled by it's mum for the last time? None of those, they go with the £10 per hour a newly qualified midwife starts on. No, it's mumsnet's attitude to midwives. Have a look at America and see how that medical model of childbirth suits.

that's just the point, reikizen, it is not about midwifes, it is about the post natal care that is just not happening at a humane level.
beeing left without food has nothing to do with the midwifes on the ward, neither have clean facilities.
I shudder when I think about the women who don't speak the language well or have no one visiting on the ward bringing in extra food and pads...

reikzen, I can understand why you are upset.

I for one am only interested in helping midwives to focus on the valuable work that they do and to free them up from calls about 'where's the toilet' 'how do I get breakfast' 'where can I get formula/sanitary towels' and so on.

Just a little practical help for bewildered new Mums.

Reikzen, you've missed the point. It's not an anti midwives campaign and despite your obvious distress I'd urge you to go back and read the thread again. We need MORE midwives, better communication and im

improved post natal care and communication. I take my hat off to any midwife who can work in today's NHS. Having spoken to many private midwives, they almost unanimously say that they moved into the private sector so they could have the chance to do the job in the way they believe it should be done.

Stay and let us pump you for info!

So because you are overworked Reikzen, we should lump it and thank our lucky stars ? I understand that it must be frustrating when you're pulled in all directions by requests for information which may not be your job, but new mums really are not doing to deliberately increase your workload and make your life more difficult.

As bagofholly says, you've missed the point. We want better resources, training and information. It is perhaps a separate issue that many of us have felt that some midwives (pre- and post-natal) have let us down, including me who was left to deliver my own baby in pain, fear and in danger to myself and my baby, who I failed to catch and who landed head first onto the very hard floor .

AFAIC no amount of heavy workload excuses rudeness and swearing at patients which many of have experienced. As funtime said new mums are not deliberately trying to increase MW's workload. For instance the young mum who was in at the same time as me who fainted, fell off the toilet and banged her head. We all saw the MW drag her back through the ward for having the audacity to faint and interupt her day. I am as sure as I can be that that new mum would rather not have fainted, surely the treatment she received is inexcusable.

If these systems and information sheets being suggested can free up a MW's time to get on with other stuff.

I have thought of something. A lot of us became very dehydrated on the ward due to the eat and trying (often unsuccessfully) to establish breast feeding). Water jugs were only replenished every second day if you were lucky due to time restraints. However the taps with drinking water were in a staff only area so we could not get water ourselves. A simple solution would be to have a tap with drinking water in an accessible area so mum's can top up their jugs themselves and are less likely to annoy the busy MW's when really longing for something to drink.

I don't think in anyway any of us think this way about Midwives reikzen.
You are being shortchanged aswell as a midwife. You need more help.
My care was poor because of the lack of midwives, too many births not because of the midwives that were there. I only complained about the care that I had not the midwives. It's your managers that should be ashamed.

I spoke to my husband about my care and he said "they know" meaning that midwives know that they aren't giving good enough care to the ladies that they look after. You would want to do more for post natal care because you can't because there is not enough of you- that's not your fault.

Mrsxstich I'm not sure I agree with the way your response "no amount of heavy workload excuses rudeness and swearing at patients ...[tale of appalling treatment] surely the treatment she received is inexcusable." puts the blame squarely on the front line service providers. In my experience in other sectors, when things are this bad it is really because of management priority, practice and supervision. When so many women across the board experience dire treatment that is because of systematic failings in the service, not simply individuals being incapable of performing a reasonable role.

reikizen it is lamentable when professionals who have the opportunity to hear first hand the experience of people they serve and find it uncomplimentary take that as a personal affront. Whether midwives are working hard or not, whether the practices are intended to (or do) generally improve people's lives or not, your imperious dismissal of the experiences of the women who are on the receiving end of this treatment is abhorrent.

That was not the only thing I witnessed prospects and I was shouted at and sworn at myself. I agree the systems is failing both staff and patients. IME however there were some MW who used this as an excuse for poor treatment of patients. Please note I said some not all. That was the point I was trying to make. There should be ways to either bring these MWs up to the standards of the other MW or to get rid of them tbh.

I agree there must be a few MWs out there who would be poor even in unstressful conditions. I don't think it's reasonable to expect any job to never have a bad apple. But given the extent of the problem demonstrated on these threads I don't think it is the crux of the problem, it's just far too widespread. Developing a work environment in which the resources are sufficient, the attitude is respectful and the few truly bad apples are removed is a leadership role that rests with management (and in theory the The Nursing and Midwifery Council). It isn't something that can come about through a focus on simply trying to persuade MWs as a group not to bully patients.

I think a lot of it must come down to the culture of the working environment. At Wexham park, I was stunned that so many of the hcp were neglectful and bordering on abusive. But because it seemed acceptable to treat women as if they were a constant royal pain in the arse, it continued.

I saw the same thing at Charing Cross (not post natal). I felt truly sorry for the nurses(and MWs at wexham)who were trying hard to do their jobs well and with compassion, because they were working in such awful environments.

I don't know how we change that culture.

Reikizen, so many of the experiences described on this and the other thread, can't just be put down to being overworked, poorly paid etc. Would that make it right to be laughing with a colleague about a woman, covered in her own shit, sobbing, having had no sleep or pain relief, surely that sort of behaviour has to be deemed completely unacceptable.

I think MrsJRT mentioned volunteers doing things like water, etc, but is there any way volunteers could help with the paperwork? That seems to be the biggest time-eater from what I've heard.