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MNHQ Please can we have a campaign for rear-facing car seats for toddlers?

78 replies

noid · 31/05/2011 10:03

There have been quite a few threads on this over the past few years. There has been an article in the BMJ advising that rear-facing car seats are safer for children under 4.

Quote from ROSPA website "Research shows they provide greater protection for children up to 18kg (40lbs), and RoSPA supports calls to make these rearward-facing seats for older toddlers more widely available here in the UK as it would improve parental choice about the safety of their children."

Toddlers' heads are big and heavy and their necks are weak. The forces involved in a crash tend to put a lot of strain on the necks of babies and young-children in forward-facing seats. For children in rear-facing seats, the forces in a crash distribute the strain over a larger area, and thus subject the body to less strain.

The Sunday Times did an article a few months ago on the benefits of rear-facing seats.

Despite this, most retailers in the UK don't sell them. It's not because they don't exist - the most popular brands of car seat in the UK make rear-facing seats, but sell them only in Scandinavia and mainland Europe where the safety message has permeated better. There are a few specialist centres, but mostly parents have to buy over the internet. John Lewis now sells a rear-fitting seat, but only in-store: it's a start, but it could be better.

If MN had a campaign on this, we could persuade the major retailers to change things. Rear-facing seats already exist and are widely available in parts of Europe. There is a big range available in Scandinavia - ones that will fit in small cars as well as big cars. Parents aren't buying them at the moment because most don't know about them, and the ones that do want a rear-facing seat have to travel a long way to buy and fit one.

Anyone else?

OP posts:
thefirstMrsDeVere · 02/06/2011 21:16

I totally agree with SOH. They are so expensive. We all want the safest option for our children but not everyone can afford top end equipment.
I certainly dont choose style over safety. Given the choice of two safe seats i would choose the pink one Grin but I wouldnt choose pink over safe.

With DC4 I only had the choice of ONE infant carrier as it was the only one that would fit in my car. With DC5 I couldnt find a single seat so couldnt take him out in my car at all.

Thats beside the point though so Blush

I am willing to accept all you say about these seats being the safe option but a campaign will not work if they remain at the price they are now.

Ordinary car seats can be frightingly expensive but there is a huge choice at the cheap end too.

greensnail · 02/06/2011 21:19

Norman - DD1 is 2.5 and we have a seat that can go RF or FF. She is definitely much happier and more comfortable RF - she has a better view as she can see out of the rear window as well as the side ones and she is more comfortable as her legs are better supported. When she had to be FF recently she fidgeted constantly and said she was uncomfortable as her legs were just dangling.

Haven't driven to scotland since she was in the group 1 seat, but regularly do 4 hour drives without any problems.

greensnail · 02/06/2011 21:22

oops, i mean since she was in the group 0 seat.

rosieposey · 02/06/2011 21:24

I have two rear facing seats for my 2.5 yo, one in dh's car and one in mine. Im really glad mumsnet was here to tell me about them as I wouldn't have known otherwise - a rear facing campaign is a great idea as looking at all of the evidence - Sweden have been advocating this for years and sometimes I can't believe my eyes when I see such tiny lo's turned forward so young.

NormanTebbit · 02/06/2011 21:40

Just looked them up

£250!
a campaign to bring down the price may be in order
I would buy for the youngest but not at that price

TyNobdieJigz · 02/06/2011 21:56

I also am Confused as to the legs.
Mainly as I can not understand how in a crash, the legs would be safer? I have read the post about certain dc being more comfortable but dont believe I would want my dc to be sitting like that for hours, on way to seaside etc.
Also taller toddlers would surely find it uncomfortable.
I understand the importance of safety, and think a campaign to reduce the price would be great, giving people a choice but would hate to be 'told' by the law that my dc have to sit with there legs round there ears everytime they go out in the car.
My neice has only just turned 4, she is very tall, I cant imagine tall 3-4 year olds would physically cope tbh.

TruthSweet · 02/06/2011 21:59

Norman - You can get the Britax Multi tech re-branded as a Volvo rfing seat from any Volvo dealership for approx £130 (comparable to an Evolva 1/2/3).

Not £40 I'll grant you but it goes from 9-25kg rfing and then ffing (if under 18kg) or as a High Back Booster to 25kg so longer lasting than an ordinary Group 1 seat. It's the same seat shell as an Evolva but with tethers and a foot prop to give you an idea of size.

noid · 02/06/2011 22:32

there's space for the legs. This website shows pics of kids in plenty of different types of rf seat.

I agree that the prices are awful.

OP posts:
TruthSweet · 02/06/2011 22:45

Ty - DD1 was in a rfing seat (Britax Two Way Elite) until a few months after she turned 4 (she would have been about 108cm when she went ffing).

DD2 is rfing in the same seat (been passed down) and is 3.6y, she is approx 105cm (is taller than some of DD1's class mates), is even leggier than DD1 was at same age and has arthritis so has joint pain (esp. knees). She doesn't complain about rfing at all and she has on occasions ff in her spare car seat in others cars so has a comparison to make.

TruthSweet · 03/06/2011 08:35

Oh and re. my cock up with physics/maths - DH (the brains of the operation) explained all to me but the jist of it is that you don't protect your children from least severe kind of accident (common or not), you protect your children from the most severe and life threatening (rare or not).

He would rather we protect our children from internal decaptiation than soft tissue damage (bruising/swelling).

HippyHippopotamus · 03/06/2011 08:57

i'm happy to join the campaign

aswellasyou · 03/06/2011 12:09

Truth, I agree with your husband. But then it's not as if they're not protected in a rear end shunt in a rear facing seat.

BertieBotts · 03/06/2011 12:52

Ty, I don't think it's that the legs are any safer, just the neck which is safer.

TruthSweet · 03/06/2011 19:50

aswellasyou - Yes, it's better than them not being restrained Smile

Bertie - I think that leg injuries are quite common features of ffing accidents due to the legs being thrown against the seat in front. See here. But as per one US car seat safety board 'better a cast than a casket'.

TruthSweet · 03/06/2011 19:52

Pressed send too soon Blush. 'Better a cast than a casket' is often quoted in response to the common refrain 'but what about their legs' when talking about rfing.

justforinfo · 03/06/2011 19:53

shrugs, JBellingham* it came across as rude to me. There are plenty of crash tests online and statistics to keep you happy all night about why rear-facing is better, if you can show me any solid facts and evidence to the contrary i'd be happy to view it.

VelveteenRabbit · 29/06/2011 09:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsAmaretto · 07/07/2011 20:33

Gosh, this thread has turned into a science/ maths lesson!

I agree with the op that I would like mumsnet to raise this with MP's.
I would like the government to look into whether extended rearfacing seats are beneficial and if so to advise accordingly or let parents know that the claims aren't correct so parents can buy the appropriate safety equipment.

I bought one for my son,but had to have it shipped from one end of uk to the other!

rearfacingcarseats5timessafer · 28/07/2011 12:03

Most common question: What about a rear ended crash? Would a RF seat in a rear ended crash not be the same as a FF seat in a frontal collision? Answer: No, but a crash where you reverse at high speed into something would be. So if you reverse at 110 miles per hour into things, keep your child in a FF seat. Otherwise, a RF seat is the most protective option.
I have been a rear facer for the last six years and many years to come with my three children, rear facing seats are the only seat that protects your child from the harm that a crash can inflicted on them, it's a no brained for me. What is my child worth? Worth protecting.
Rear facing seats give a better view out of the car window too, and a mirror can let you keep an eye on them ( only when not driving that goes with out saying) we can still talk, and when I'm in the passenger seat I can still hand them things, and I stroke theirs heads too!!!!!
The girls love the fact that they face their brother, who is in the third row.
Forward facing seats hold your child in the car in a crash, rear facing seats protect them!!!!!
Mumsnet please help protect children, many children die in car crashes every year, their parents may have been saved the pain of this loss, if they had been able to walk into a high street shop and been offered a rear facing seat.
Even Which support this now, when six years ago they would only admit it was safer but would not recommend.
The Americans now recommend rear facing to a minimum of two years, why are we so behind?
It is only when rear facing seat become more common that the prices will be more competitive.
Please help

SuchProspects · 29/07/2011 17:59

I like the idea of getting greater choice in styles and pricing for RF child seats and improving information to parents. I tried to get RF seats for my kids but couldn't find ones that would work for us. Greater range and availability would be great.

I'm very much against the idea of legislating further on this matter. I think there is already far too much mandated risk assessment and associated costs put on parents. Parents who wish to prioritise having more cash in hand, lighter seats for non-car transporting, the ability to turn around and talk to their children, or some other advantage I can't think of, should be free to do so.

There is more to life than safety, as everyone who uses a car seat, RF or FF, should appreciate since the safest thing to do would be to not put your kids in a car in the first place. And there are different approaches to safety, for instance, I'm not in agreement with Truth's DH that you always protect against severe rare risks at the expense of more common less severe risks. Families should be able to make different decisions about risks and benefits.

marzipananimal · 06/08/2011 09:07

I only found out that rearfacing seats exist through Mumsnet. The information should definitely be more widely available.

I bought one from an independent retailer who told me that the manufacturers will only let independent stores stock them as they have much lower staff turnover than the chains so the staff can be trained to install the seats. This kind of makes sense but if you can buy them online then you're not getting any trained help to install them so not sure Mothercare would be any worse.

But until the cost comes down they will remain in the minority. Not sure how this can be addressed. We are lucky enough to be able to afford one but it was a difficult decision as we're not exactly rolling in money.

blondieminx · 26/09/2011 15:05

FWIW the Essex County Council In Car safety centre (near Southend) always recommends rf, and they will fit check any seat :)

They put me onto this car seat company and I got a Britax 2-way Elite (for kids up to about 4) for less than £200. DD has always been very happy in it but then she went from a rf MaxiCosi CabrioFix straight into the rf Britax so hasn't ever known anything else.

As others have said the price will come down when/if rf becomes more common. I think it's disgraceful that the major seat retailers like Mothercare/Halfords etc don't stock rf seats as they are so much safer. "No demand" I was told when I rang Mothercare. Erm, really?!

Technodad · 19/02/2012 13:54

I know this is a bit of an old thread, but I am fairly new to MN and this discussion is something I feel strongly about. Basically, rear facing is much much safer, and we all need to stop making excuses and start thinking of our children's safety.

The argument about rear shunts being the most common form of crash is not a valid one! Surely for every rear shunt, there is another car which is hitting you from behind (and that car is driving forwards). The mechanics which explain why rear facing is much safer is described below and can all be very easily explained using Newton?s three laws of motion (GCSE level Maths / Physics, so don?t be scared).

The three laws state that:

  1. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

  2. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma.

  3. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

So what do they mean?

Well, let?s look at the first law. All it is saying is that in the event of a crash (let?s say a car doing 60 mph hitting an immovable wall or tree ? a pretty horrendous scenario), the child?s head will try to continue to move in the same direction and at the same speed (60 mph travelling forwards), unless a force is exerted on it from elsewhere. The only place this force can come from is the only thing it is attached to, the neck.

Moving onto the second law: In a crash, the car decelerates from 60 mph to 0 mph (a deceleration is just a negative acceleration). It is the rate at which this speed changes that defines the acceleration. Since the force on the child?s neck is equal to the mass of the child?s head times by the acceleration F = m x a, this means that as the acceleration term increases (i.e. the car slows at a quicker rate), the amount of force on the child?s neck increases proportionally.

All the third law does is says that when all these forces occur, there is always an equal force on another object. So the force of the car hitting the wall, in effect has an identical but negative force in the form of ?the wall hitting the car?.

----

Taking the case above of the 60 mph car hitting an immovable wall or tree, and adding some simple maths for a forward facing car seat case, we need to calculate the rate at which the child?s head slows down (the acceleration of the child?s head). If the car has a crumple zone of 1m (i.e. the car will be 1 m shorter after the crash than before the crash due to all the bumper and metal compressing) and the child?s head continues to travel 0.5 m forward during the crash (due to the stretching of the seatbelts, the child seat harness and of the neck itself), then that gives a total distance of travel (for the child?s head) of 1.5 m from the start of the crash to the end (when speed = 0 mph). Some simple maths state that

v2 = u2 + 2 aS,

where:
a = acceleration
S = distance travelled during crash
u = Speed prior to the start of the crash.
v = final speed

Since v = 0 (i.e. the car and child come to a complete stop at the end of the crash), this can be re-arranged to:

a = -u2 / 2S

using our value of:

S = 1.5 m
u = 60 mph (converted to m per second gives 27 ms^-1)

When worked out, this means that during the crash the child?s head decelerates at roughly 243 ms-2, given that gravity (also an acceleration) is equal to 9.81 ms-2, this means that the child?s head will decelerate at roughly 24 g (24 times that of gravity), which in-turn means the child?s head will in effect ?weigh? 24 times it?s normal weight during the crash (with ?weight? being a force and in the direction of the car?s travel rather than towards the ground).

If a child?s head normally weighs 2.5 kg, then in the crash it will momentarily weigh 60 kg which is about the same weight as a medium build woman, hanging from your child?s neck!

Looking at the rear facing case, the total distance travelled by the child?s head is reduced, which actually makes for a higher deceleration and higher forces, but what actually happens is rather than this force all being exerted upon the child?s neck in the form of stretching, it is spread out along the back of the seat, which acts like a re-enforced spine for the child. This means that the actual load on any individual part of bone or body structure is relatively small as the load is shared amongst far more body structure.

------

Looking at a 60 mph crash into a stationary vehicle. The calculation as above is identical, but all that happens is that the distance ?S? is increased. This is for two reasons, firstly because the second car also has a crumple zone and secondly because the car, when hit will be moved and as such, the energy of the crash will be absorbed over longer distances and time which means the acceleration to the child?s head will be smaller and hence forces reduced. This distance will be dependent upon many influences, such as the weight of the other vehicle the road surface and weather the vehicles brakes are on or off.

Using some example numbers:

Crumple zone of your car = 1 m (same as before)
Movement of child?s head = 0.5 m (same as before)
Crumple zone of static car = 1 m
Distance moved by static car during the crash = 10 m

All of this gives a total distance of S = 12.5 m

Put into the previous equation this gives an acceleration of 29 ms^-2 which is about 9 times lower than for the crash into the immovable wall or tree. This means the child?s head would ?weigh? 3 times more than normal, not insignificant, but in no-way as large a force than with the previous example. However, the reality is that the deceleration calculated here is an average over the whole crash, and it is likely that the vast majority of the deceleration would be achieved in the early parts of the crash, so this simple calculation will give artificially low values. It is probably reasonable to say that the acceleration would be about 10 g, giving 10 times the child?s head weight (using engineering judgement).

--------

Now is probably a good time to think about a rear shunt impact, since we have just considered a 60 mph car hitting a static vehicle, let?s look at things from the point of view of that static vehicle.

In the crash, the car is accelerated from 0 mph to a certain speed (depending upon the car weight, road surface and if the brakes are on or off). It is reasonable to assume that the effects on the child?s head would be the same as for that of a child in the car which is hitting the static car, but in an opposite direction (Newton?s 3rd law).

Thus, a rear shunt in a car with a forward facing seat would mean that the child?s head would ?weigh? 25 kg (based upon 10 g) but the force would be opposed by the back of the child?s seat, distributing this load more evenly with the seat back acting like a re-enforced spine.

Therefore, a rear shunt in a rear-facing seat would be the equivalent force on the child?s neck for the passenger of the static car, as a child in a forward facing seat in the 60 mph car.

So what can we learn from this? Well, if you are in a traffic jam and are rear shunted, then you can reduce the forces by keeping your brakes ON (including your foot brake since the handbrake only holds the rear wheels), and by keeping a small distance from you and the car in-front. This will decrease the acceleration of your vehicle (and more importantly your child?s head) since your car will effectively have more mass, especially when your car hits the car in-front the mass of the two vehicles combine (since Force = mass x acceleration, increase mass for the same force, you reduce the acceleration ? Newton?s second law). However, this action will without question make the acceleration of the car which is was doing 60 mph prior to the crash higher, thus increasing the forces on their body parts, but hey, that is their problem. It may also mean that you damage the front of the car if someone hits the back of your car - but who cares about the car.

-------

Now, let?s look at the case of 2 cars both doing 30 mph and having a head on collision. To analyse this, you basically have to think of Newton?s 3rd law. So for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If we consider both cars are the same mass and design (so have the same size crumple zone). Then we can consider the events for both cars to be like crashing into a ?crash mirror?, both experience the same forces. This means that the event is essentially identical to a crash into an immovable wall. Therefore, using 30 mph instead of 60 mph, we can calculate the acceleration and forces using the equation and data from the very first example:

a = -u2 / 2S

With this in mind, and using our value of:

S = 1.5 m
u = 30 mph (converted to m per second gives 13.5 ms^-1)

When worked out, this means that during the crash the child?s head decelerates at roughly 61 ms^-2. This means that the child?s head will decelerate at roughly 6 g, which in-turn means the child?s head will in effect ?weigh? 6 times its normal weight during the crash.

As you can see, this is very much lower (4 times lower) than a crash of 60 mph into a tree! It is also NOT the same as crashing at 60 mph into a stationary car.

However, a head on crash with both cars doing 60 mph would give the exact same results as a car doing 60 mph hitting an immovable wall.

-----

So what does all of this tell us? Well basically, the highest energy accident you could ever have would be a head on crash into a static and very large object (eg a tree, wall, crash barrier, slow moving lorry), or into an object of similar size travelling in the opposite direction. In these events, the forces on a child?s neck due to the neck decelerating the child?s head are unacceptable high! Having your child in a rearwards facing seat would vastly reduce the force on individual body parts, distributing the loads and by providing a ?virtual spine? for the child to do all of the work.

Rear impacts are definitely lower energy and you can reduce the force on the child?s neck, for both forward and rear facing seats, by keeping your brakes on when stationary, having a heavy car and staying close to the car in-front in a queue, however this makes things worse for the occupants of the car which is moving when it hits you.

Without question, a forward facing seat provides better protection in a rear shunt than a rear-facing seat, but the forces are much lower for this event than for the head-on crash events discussed.

As to the likelihood of a frontal, side or rear impact, you will have to ask a statistician. All of the information above is heavily simplified and energy transfers to heat and sound energy are assumed to be negligible and ignored. It also does not include the event of items from the boot continuing forward and impacting the car occupants, for which a rear facing seat provides no protection (but you could just buy a dog divider)

I hope this helps and I look forward to other comments.

The poster accepts no liability for the accuracy of this post or for how the information within the post is used for decision making purposes.

TheAvocado · 19/02/2012 14:09

thanks for waking up the thread - this is a topic dear to my heart. It is reassuring that halfords has started stocking the recaro polaric so gradually rf seats are becoming more mainstream.

Technodad · 19/02/2012 14:22

I contacted Halfords 3.5 years ago asking why they didn't stock RF seats and I am pretty sure they never replied! So I am glad they have woken up to the need for them now.

I have been very annoyed with Which? magazine for the way they rate seats and give equal weighting to ease of use as safety, which then leads parents into buying a less safe seat for their child! For some reason, Which? seem to think the same reviewing metrics are applicable for a child car seat as for a washing machine

We are years behind the scandinavians in this area of road safety!