Tuition Fees

[KateMumsnet]

As you've probably heard, the government has announced changes to the way universities are funded, and this means that, starting in 2012, the amount that students will be expected to pay for university tuition will rise to a maximum of £9000 per year. Here's the BBC's story.

We thought we'd test the water to see if there was a strong consensus on this issue amongst MNers, so do let us know what you think. Whether you're for or agin', it would be very useful if you could indicate (briefly!) your reasoning.

Those of you who are firmly against the changes might like to know that there will be a rally for students, future students and their families, on Horse Guards Avenue SW1 at 11:30am tomorrow, Wednesday 10th November. The event is organised by the NUS and supported by the British Youth Council, which includes organisations like the Scouts, the Woodcraft Folk, and St John Ambulance.

I am really concerned about the potential impact on our children's futures if tuition fees increase to £9000 a year. A debt of £27,000 hanging over someone at the start of their working life is a huge burden, no matter when it becomes payable nor how long a period it can be paid off over. This is, of course in addition to the costs of books, living and accommodation which we all know can easily wipe out your salary in an instant.

I write with experience as both a mother and a student. I started my (part-time) degree when my youngest child was one. Six years later and my experience has been of 2 hours contact time a week (30 weeks a year) at the university. For many similar [humanities] degrees I fail to see how a rise to such an extent can be justified. For example, on the basis of a tutor receiving a salary of, say, £100K this works out at £55 an hour for a 35-hour working week. Split this between say 10 students and we should each be contributing £5.50 per hour. Of course the university has to pay admin. and library staff, pay for the buildings and insurance etc., etc. which cost, say, another £9.50 per hour per student (a figure I've plucked out of the air - I would be very interested to see some figures from universities or the government to calculate what the actual costs are to allow us an informed judgement) this comes to a total cost of £15 per hour. My degree requires a maximum of 360 hours contact study time, which therefore works out at a total cost £5400 for the whole degree, ie £1800 a year (full time). This is 50% more than I have been required to pay for my degree course, ergo fees must rise. However, it is a figure significantly lower than the proposed £9000 a year.

£27,000 in fees for a 3 year full-time degree is far, far too expensive for the individual to bear. In order to be fair to future generations and support the right to a good education for all in this country, the costs which students are to face should be limited to representing the value of the education they actually receive and not a profit for the establishment. I feel that the cost will put off many would-be students and as a mother to two potential students I feel that it is going to be very difficult to give them good advice for the future with the current proposals - how can you weigh up the benefit that a degree can have for their careers, compared with the stress which the burden of debt can cause?

Perhaps the only hope for their future is that commerce will realize the importance of having qualified staff and may begin to consider sponsoring their employees to attend university with a Golden Hello - instead of taking advantage of jobless graduates through unpaid internships - but that is perhaps a discussion for a different day.

In the meantime, all I can say is that I hope my MP will be give the matter very very careful consideration before he votes on the proposal to increase tuition fees and that our government realizes that it is not only the student population but also each of their families who have grave concerns over the costs of university education.

Do people think that parents and granparents should support the student protest?
Should gov ministers pay for the free education they had if the kitty is low? after all they are on good salary more than £21,000 and they have contributed to the deficit !! Thanks Rebelgran.

Totally against this.

Feel so strongly about this, this is why I have joined mumsnet. I feel obliged to look out and protect the rights of every child to fulfil their own potential, regardless of their financial/social background. Education is a right not a privilege. It is how an individual can really turn their life around. I know this to be true from my own experience. Being a mum to me means being there for the benefit of children (mine and other peoples). I have to try to rally support for our 'young stars to be', make a stand against politicians who don't keep their pre-election pledges to my kids, and I need to encourage and help protect our kids democratic right to protest peacefully. I will be at the next demo with our kids, I would love to do it under the banner of mumsnet. Happy to help cos I care! That is what mums do!

The government is trying to impose 80% cuts to university funding and a trebling of university fees to £9000 per year. They are also scrapping Educational Maintenance Allowance- the money given to some A level students so that they can afford to support themselves at college. Many of you will know about these measures already.

I am writing from University College London's occupation; students at UCL feel so strongly about these changes that we are occupying a room in our university to pressure our management into condemning the cuts. Our Occupation is supported by the NUS and by many others from Billy Bragg to Polly Toynbee. We would love to have the support/work with mumsnet. As has been reported in the media thousands of students have taken to the streets in protest. The changes will not affect us directly as our fees are set at £3000 but we are campaigning for the next generation of children who are faced with excessive levels of debt and under-funded universities.

We know that it's a lot easier for students to protest than people with families but we would love to involve you in our campaign. If you, like us, feel these cuts are unfair and want to be heard, send a picture like this one

ucloccupation.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/i'm-a-baby-not-a-cash-cow/
NB- please take out the space between 'baby-' and 'not' in the web address.
Feel free to use a different slogan.
Send the picture to [email protected].
Parents and Students- let's stand together!

C?mon Mumsnetters! Where are you???

I have NEVER posted on an online notice board before in my life! But I cannot believe the level of apathy surrounding this issue! An urgent campaign is needed!!! This is sooo much more important than the majority of posts on this site? This affects the future of our children!

I am sure I will be re-iterating the words of others as have only read half of the posts on this board, but we need to put our name to this campaign even if we cannot add fresh arguments! The majority of students campaigning will not be personally affected by the changes, yet they are arguing the unjustness of the system whereby your date of birth affects your life chances. Your kids are affected ? why aren?t we marching and flooding the inboxes of politicians? The vote is next Thursday ? C?MON!!!

When this proposed legislation comes into force, it will have been 18 years since I started at University?. I cannot believe how much will have altered in the space of a generation. I had free tuition, and my parents part-funded my living costs, which was supplemented by student loans. The student loan I was on had an interest rate equal to the level of inflation, and was not repayable until I was earning a ?decent? salary ? the equivalent of 27,048 per annum today. On leaving university, the combination of student loan and student overdraft amounted to 6k. 2 years later following some imprudence (I was young!) the cost of getting a car (to enable me to work) and setting up home, my unsecured debt was 12k ? this level made it hard to sleep at night and was equal to my annual salary net of tax.

The pooling of our resources, household austerity measures and the booming housing market ?saved? myself and DH (also with 12k of debt) from this situation. We were able to cancel our debts by releasing equity on moving home, so we could then ?start again?. The experience left us with a horror of debt and since then the only debt we have is our mortgage - we have never since lived beyond our means (unlike the government of this country).

Yes, the country is in a terrible state, yes, we have to ensure that we don?t continue to live beyond our means, but within this civilised society that we have, we have to hold onto the values that we hold dear. Value judgements have to be made on what needs funding and what doesn?t.

I accept that the current cost of providing University Education is too high ? this could be reduced by the government deciding which courses ?add value? and therefore should attract funding and which don?t. If an individual wishes to study a course and has achieved the necessary grades, there should be minimal fees to pay. The children are the future: those that are motivated to work hard, better themselves and go to university are far more likely to add value to society and contribute to our future economy (through their skills, their innovations and purchasing power) than those who do not. They will also repay their debt to society by not being a drain on the economy (like those on benefits) and are highly likely to become higher rate taxpayers in the future ? the historic mechanism for those who have benefited from University being able to repay their debt to society.

The initial group of students affected are facing massive youth unemployment (graduates and non-graduates alike), massive tuition fees, and those lucky politicians who have their own properties (if not 2!) suggest that they should not be aspiring to own their own home. If they want a place of their own, rather than live with mum and dad, or be at the mercy of the rent of private landlords, they face having to gather together an initial deposit of around 30k.

I don?t fit within the majority, having had an unplanned pregnancy in my early 20s, but the majority of university educated people of my generation have waited until they are 30 to have their first child in order that they have some financial stability. The future generations will never have the luxury of financial stability!

Most people with an unsecured debt of 45k with no assets would take out an IVA or go bankrupt to discharge it ? it is a horrifying amount to have hanging over your head. A couple would have double this hanging over them ? this is more than most people?s mortgage! I also don?t buy the argument that they do not have to consider it as it will only be payable when they are earning 21k. This will sit on their credit ratings for the rest of their lives. It may not be payable in the first few years of work, but will come into effect when they are trying to set up home and plan their families. When are they supposed to save for their children?s futures? When are they supposed to plan for their retirement?? If they hit the higher rate tax band they will be hit with a double whammy ? their interest rate increases in conjunction with the higher tax level. What is wrong with increasing the higher rate tax so that all who have the capability to pay do so?

In summary: My suggestion would be to reduce the number of places at University and remove the courses that are not likely to be of much value to those taking them. These courses should accept people on merit and have nominal (or preferably no) fees. Those attending University are already suffering the opportunity cost of not being in employment for 3 years and their living expenses?. If the country?s books cannot be made to balance through any other mechanism ? the percentage band of higher rate tax should be raised slightly, so that all who have the ability to pay can do so.

If we wish the country to become economically strong again ? it does not make sense to stunt the growth of those who have the ability to save it!

I take it MN has decided against making this a campaign then?

Outraged by this. I am a mature student studley BTEC level two, then BTEC level three, Then BTEC level three extension and in 2.5 years will go to uni for 3 year degree. I inherited money and decided to go back to training. All my courses are costing me and thats fine I am not complaining. But £9000 a year is just outrageous. I dont have that sort of money. I'ts going to leave me in debt at 35 years old. Feel even more for the younger generation that will have these debts starting their careers. This is ludricous. Why are they penalising the people who are trying to make things better for themselves. It will have cost me £32,000 by the end of the degree if the government have their way.

Please support our students. They have cared enough to have marched in the cold and the snow and chant NO to tripling student fees. Now it is our chance to support them. Hopefuly mumsnet wiil do some thing very soon but if anyone wants to act now check out www.familiesagainstfees.co.uk website. You just bung in your postcode and it generates a letter to your MP. Literally takes a minute and you can change the letter if you want. Pass this info on to others please.

I know this thread is quite old, but it's interesting to see how so many flaws and inconsistencies have arisen with this policy since it was put through at breakneck speed last December. If you go to this blog: tuitionfeerise.blogspot.com/
you will see an excellent summary of all the arguments against the increase in tuition fees and a link to a petition epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/12760
asking not for the fees to be banned, but simply for the issue to be revisted and a new vote taken now that the implications have become clearer.

I don't personally know the lady who prepared the blog and petition, but she has clearly put a lot of work into it and it would be good if we could get the number signing the petition up to 100,000 in an attempt to bring about a new debate and vote on the matter if or when a new Higher Education Bill is brought to Parliament in 2012.

Please check out the links - it's all explained there (very well) and give the petition your support.

Ok I know the Scottish situation has been done but although we/DD is Scottish and the university she is attending is in our home city DD is the only one on her course paying fees. Five girls are Irish and another from Glasgow, none of whom pay anything. My DD went to private school from 5 -18 years old so we paid for her schooling. She then went to England and was given a DADA but we had to pay the scottish eqivalent of the fees. She has now come back to Scotland to do a post grad course and after being told her fees were being paid has now been told they cant pay them because she has not stayed here for the last 3 years. She has now been told to apply to England and we still dont know if they will pay her fees. My DH and I still work, have always paid tax, fully paid for her education apart from England when she got the DADA and we are paying again.