All opinions/knowledge welcome! and gratefully received.

[Fran1]

Sorry that this is so long, but would love to hear views on ethnicity monitoring. I am trying to update my works forms and below is a list recommended by my council (and i am told i have to stick to) with my addition for travellers and gypsy's.

White
British
Irish
Traveller of Irish Heritage
Gypsy / Roma
Any other White background.
Mixed
White and black Caribbean
White and black African
White and Asian
Any other mixed background.
Asian or Asian British
Indian
Pakistani
Bangladeshi
Any other Asian Background
Black or Black British
Caribbean
African
Any other Black background
ChineseAny other background

What bugs me is it misses loads of people. E.g mixed - black caribbean / Asian

Black caribbean / Irish.
Where does someone from Mauritius fit in??

The list could go on and on and on. I need to collect statistics and there obviously has to be limits.
I would like to just have one single line which asks what is your ethnic background and for people to complete as they wish. But this i am told is not allowed - and i appreciate would make collecting statistics impossible.
I would love to hear what you feel about this and whether you've seen it done any differently on forms you have had to complete.

It is driving me insane thinking about it!

Thank you if you've stayed this long and i look forward to seeing views!

Fran1,

First of all, thank you for asking for input about an issue as sensitive as ethnic monitoring. Good work, you're doing.

My bugbear about ethnic monitoring forms:

I'm Chinese and grew up in S.E.Asia. It amuses but mostly annoys me that in Britian, when we describe someone's ethnicity as Asian, we usually mean the individual is of Indian, Bangladeshi or Pakistani descent. This is especially true of the media.

The ethnic origin section in forms I've filled in also tend to list "Asian" with the sub categories I mentioned above and then "Other" as the final Asian subcategory as a sort of afterthought.

I always tick the "Other" box and write in very large letters "Chinese" next to the box because it annoys me to be a faceless, ethnic-less Other.

A parallel example would be like using the term English to refer to all the different European races.

I understand that the Indian, Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities form a much larger percentage of the British population than the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Malays, Thais, Vietnamese and other S.E. Asian races. Hence, it is easier on the forms to list the largest ethnic communities.

But it would be lovely to be recognised as a fellow Asian too! Not just an Other.

I've recently had a form which ran along the lines of yours as it listed "Any other Asian Background" rather than Other. I'm assuming yours isn't a tick only box and does provide a blank space to state ethnicity.

If we're given a blank space to state our ethnic origin, this may come halfway to addressing the frustration of not being identified/recognised as an ethnic group or variation in such forms.

The same suggestion applies to the mixed ethnic origin categories. You couldn't possibly list all the wonderful variations out there. And I think most people realise that. Most of my cousins are of mixed ethnicity and three of them are part Scottish, part Iban (native race on Borneo Island), part Chinese and Malay. How do they answer the forms? I haven't asked.

You're right that eventually there will be so many ethnic variations that it will be impossible to list them all.

My feeling is that as long as we are given the chance to state our ethnicities along the lines you suggest i.e. "Please specify your ethnic background" rather than have offensive "Other" or "Any other background" boxes to tick, we aren't as likely to fume.

A matter of wording perhaps but certainly more courteous and less dismissive in tone. And such forms will inevitably have to evolve in style and content to reflect the changing make-up of our communities.

Our baby is due any day now and will be half English so I expect (for the present at least) to continue to tick the "Other mixed background" box and scrawl his enthnicities assertively on the side.

Good luck on a such a tough project.

SF

Fran yes - when you select asian and white mixed, should be able to specify what kind of asian mixed, like you can if you were 100% asian. The form gives differenct choices for black and white mixed, but not for asian and white mixed.

would it be possible to have a list simply with continent of ethnic origin (eg europe, asia etc) and then next to that a space to allow the individual to further elaborate, or is that just total rubbish?

I see what you mean Kelly - hadn't even realise that!

Thank you sweet fudge, that is a very useful reply and interesting to see that i too had been brainwashed to think of Asian people as Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi. I knew that china is in Asia, but assumed there was a difference i was unaware of that meant it was used seperately!

I agree with you on the wording front, these forms are completed by our frontline staff with the client and so i am going to ensure (once i have decided on correct methods and wording) that i train the staff to all follow suit when filling these forms.

chicago mum, i have considered your suggestion, and may bring it up at a meeting next week so we can all brain storm about it.

You could list all (or more) backgrounds and you tick two boxes if you have mixed ethnic background, or does that make people from a mixed background feel even more left out?

In North America, because we have more East Asian people (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc) than South Asian (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, etc), Asian means, by default East Asian. (The term "oriental" has been dropped, for some very good reasons.)

But it's more useful to say, South Asian, East Asian, even South-East Asian (Thai, Vietnamese, etc). I try to do this, although nobody in this country understands the term "South Asian".

I prefer the idea of ticking more than one box, sounds good.

I always refuse to tick ethnic origin boxes. I don't think any of them (including yours) actually subdivide in a way that is useful to anyone. It is just a way of manipulating statistics to use them for ones on purposes.

So where do my kids fit it. If you look at them they are white, but that hardly tells the whole story. Their father is white british and their mother (me) is half white italian (but that half is half (romanian jewish and half sicilian catholic) and half white jewish american. Now my children, with that sort of a background will more than likely not have the same medical risks, learning possibilities, cultural upbringing, diet, etc. etc. as a white child born to white, protestant british parents in the middle of a poor area in newcastle.
Similarly, a chinese person from a small village in mongolia is unlikely to have the same ethnic, cultural, diet, life, medical needs, possibilities as a chinese person from new york or canton.
Or what about a somalian compared to some from from the congo. They are both african black, but they don't even look the same, forget about food, life, culture, genetics, etc.

I think it's so misleading to group people into these broad categories that are sort of loosely based on the color of their skin.

You are right SA, it's never as simple as a tick in a box.

Fran,

Listing more major categories and allowing those of us of mixed backgrounds to tick more than one box sounds like a good first step forward for your brain storming sessions. Ditto Chicagomum's suggestion.

Let's face it - monitoring forms are never going to be perfect but at least you are making the effort at improvements. So keep up the good work!

I get annoyed with such forms as well but if it means that the collated information allows you to reach more of the communities in our society, then I am for it.

SF

I get annoyed with these forms too, and as i said earlier used to refuse to tick or just tick other.

But i now realise the importance when it comes to ensuring ones services are available to all.

I understand want you are saying sofia but in terms of my role it is about finding out if there are community groups who just are not accessing services. I already know that in my borough somalians, travellers and asylum seekers are barely using our services and other health services available to them. But the only way i can make people listen and realise and accept changes need to be made is by showing them figures. When you work with people high up in the NHS or social services you have to go armed with statistics.

I understand your point Fran1, but if that's the case, your form doesn't actually separate out somalians from other africans, so how could you use it to show that they aren't being catered for.
Why not just ask people what their ancestry is, rather than asking what color they are?

And how does someone who doesn't speak english fill out your form. And what about new arrivals who don't think of themselves as being from a country, but rather as being from a tribe. I can't imagine they would have any idea of how to answer those questions.

Our frontline staff complete the forms for the clients and we use translators that don't speak English.

I will prove that certain groups are not being catered for through the reports that i am going to present but statistics will aid me in this.

As you can see i am trying to search for the 'perfect' solution with asking the question here, and it is very apparent there is no perfect solution. Especially as these statistic categories are defined by the government as used for the census and its going to be virtually impossible for me to make change anyway, but i'd certainly like to start people thinking about alternatives.

Could you separate your nationality and ethnic origin

ie mixed could be english and african or french & english
but race could be black or white

or is that crap?

Sorry, you are right, it's more helpful to offer productive suggetions. I agree with katymac. Why not separate the questions of skin color from the questions about ethnic origin. Why not ask people where they are from (ie see how they identify themselves.)

eg my DD is mixed (jamaican & english) and also mixed (black & white)

But her friend is mixed (german & english) and also white

TBH we could do with scrapping colour altogether couldn't we? What does that have to do with ethnic background anyway?

So nationality

British (whether white/black/asian/chinese/etc)
West Indian
African (do you need to subdivide)
European
Amerian
South American
Asian
(something for australia)

Or have I got the worng end of the stick....

katymac, you've mostly separated by continents, not countries. I think it would be more useful to separate by countries and in some cases even regions within those countries (ie china as it's so large and has a very non-homogenous population).

That would make sense (but are't there hundreds?)

HMM just wondering where dh would put himself, part Canadian, part belgian, part Lithuanian jew, part polish!

I would have thought that the probelm with having allthe possible 'Mixed'catagories is that it isn't possble to list them all.

Would people be offended with a 'Mixed- please specify'?

Could you also have 'Nationality- please specify ethnic group'? so people could opt for British...white or French....african or whatever

I think reference to "colour" is extremely misleading, beacuse it does not in fact describe "ethnicity" or "race".

Personally, I always find these very strange and never know what to tick.

I am a white Caucasian (I know the word Aryan has negative conotations which is why it's not used - but yes I am Aryan). But I am not European, North American, etc. I think "other white" assumes that you have to be European, North American, Australian, etc, in fact the original Aryan race originates from the Caucasus (geographically, this is now spread over several different countries of today's Middle East and Central Asia).

In terms of skin colour, many Aryans are white, but many (for example Asians who are also Aryans) are not white.

Phew, Im glad I was made in Britain and not mixed, im worn out trying to find a solution to this one!

Fran - go back to basics and think again about what you are trying to get stats for. You are not asking peoples ethnicty/culture to be politically correct but to see which communities in your area are not using your services. So why not stick to putting just the communities that are prevelant in your area? I mean, it doesn't help your purpose to know that there is someone (using SA as an example) whose " father is white british and their mother (me) is half white italian (but that half is half (romanian jewish and half sicilian catholic) and half white jewish american" because from all that I've read of Sofia's posts, she and her children would fit into a general "white middle class" group when targeting council services (I am extremely sorry if my stereotyping annoys or offends you SA white middle class is not meant to be insulting )

So as long as you phrase the survey in such a way that it doesn't offend people (and I think you've had soem excellent suggestions here - particularly regarding usage of "other"), can you not put (for example)

Vietnamese
Bangladeshi
Other Asian
Somalian
Other African

and allow people to tick all that apply?

LOL fran - dp is Mauritian, and even in our local NHS monitoring form, which fills 3 columns of A4 with possible boxes to tick, we still have to tick 'other' for DS!

This is the first time I have seen a suggestion for people to be able to tick more than one box - 'tick all that apply' - it seems a good idea.

It's such a nightmare - the Quango that provides funding for my organisation tried to insist that we use the CRE monitoring boxes, but we refused (with some struggle) because it would have 'other-boxified' at least a third of users in one of our most significant projects, being Trinidadians, and Asian Caribbeans.

We found that far more forms were filled in when we invited people to self-define. We ask 'how would you define your national, ethinic or cultural background?'.

But then, of course, we have to put the results into categories - but usually people are v clear.

The other important thing is to keep in mind the reason for monitoring - and that what you really want to know is that those who are often marginalised, discriminated against or hard-to-reach are accessing the service...so worth being v specific about certain groups perhaps? At the risk of making the undiscriminated-against go all huffy, of course!

Good luck. this is interesting.

DH is Egyptian and is dark skinned with afro hair but does not like ticking the boxes that say 'black african' as in his head this conjures up an image of someone from sub saharan Africa, eg Kenya or zimbabwe. He is happier just ticking a box that says 'African'. Also bear in mind not all Africans are black. People from the extreme north can be very white and even have fair hair and eyes.