Do Black boys need separate or specialist education?

[crouchingtigeress]

Just seen newsnight with Bill Morris, Chris Woodhead and Tony Sewell (education specialist).

Both BM and CW thought that class was more an issue than race.

TS disagreed and argued that they're are middle class African-caribbean boys failing.

Any thoughts?

SallyS - I was musing over the girls thing too. there were some sopecific initiatives about encouraging girls in formerly 'boys' subjects like science.
But, since in the olden days girls just used to drift off and quietly go into being housewives, whilst boys tend to raise expensive hell, it was, as you say, allowed to happen.

Then, I think, girls began to see what education could bring to them, watching emerging female role models, and spotted a cahnce for independence. I know many of the women in DP's (asian) family pursued academic excellence as their bid for an independent life, and did well.

I think black boys need the same thing - as MMarslady says - more focus on black intellectuals, realistic (not gangsta) role models, mentors. All this could be achieved within an integrated education system. this just doesn't feel like the moment to me to introduce more segregation - whether into faith schools or race / gender groups.

Yes but will teaching black boys about intellectual black roll models of past and present improve their attitude to trying harder? I wouls d hope that it did. To be honest I am really not sure. I have two boys mixed race and I will hopefully instill in them what my mum instilled into me. You work hard, ask for help if you dont not understand and you can acheive anything. My brother did well at school, he awsn't top of the class but he worked hard and at 38 years now has a great career. And my brother had no positive black roll model in his life my dad was not around just mum.
It is sometimes too easy for the young boys to want to copy their friends and "play dumb" when infact they are intelligent and are too ashamed to show it incase their friends laught at them. I am a black woman and I feel that they should not be segregated, the education system is suffering enough with the lack of teachers let alone seperating black boys in the hope that achieve better. What about the black girls they don't seem to be struggling or playing dumb. Children with real learning diffficulties have to sometimes learn in a mainstream school in a mainstream class and many of them are not segregated. It is a difficult one really but I feel that they should not be seperated at all.

Moosh, I think that we need to set up intellectual black role models for all children, black, white and indifferent. There was a short biog of Mary Seacole on last night. Hidden away late at night on BBC2. How are people to know that it's not just a white, elite few that have caused changes in the world. My two sons are also mixed race. Like you I have taught them and continue to teach them that they need to work hard, not be ashamed to ask for help and aim high. I've also told DS1 (DS2 being only 1) that he needs to be careful in choosing his friends. He has one who he sees less and less thanks to schools. This one friend is an arrogant so and so. He disrupts, takes things without permission, thinks it's cool to pretend to be a rebel etc etc. I've told DS1 that whilst I won't stop them being friends he needs to decide for himself how he wants to live and where he wants to go. I also told him that it means standing his ground where his friends are concerned and to lead rather than follow. Call me in 10 years and I'll let you know if I have succeeded lol.

It's so hard to know what to do, but as we all keep saying segregation is not the answer.

in my opinion no-one needs segregating but maybe more emphasis should be placed on encouraging education including cultural topics regardless of colour.

A black family had 3 children at our primary school, one went off to the local comp and is doing very well, his sister successfully sat exam for King Edwards (grammar school), and the youngest child was taken out of our school and went to the much better primary school a mile away (he incidentally is extremely intelligent). They will do a lot better than many of their white peers because they have a good attitude to learning and education.

Controversial question but pls do not bite my head off.
Would it be true to say that there are some cultures who have faced discrimination in var forms have done well because:
they have organised themselves to attend to their needs/requirements not depended on outside sources who although well intentioned get it wrong for var reasons. plus they have also been a strong cohesive group moving towards their aim?
please polite comments pls.

Controversial question but pls do not bite my head off.
Would it be true to say that there are some cultures who have faced discrimination in var forms have done well because:
they have organised themselves to attend to their needs/requirements not depended on outside sources who although well intentioned get it wrong for var reasons. plus they have also been a strong cohesive group moving towards their aim?
please polite comments pls.

yes, the Chinese usually do just that as migrants; Malaysia, Indonesia and Malaysian Chinese students continuoulsy top the bright kids tables here in Australia.

Of course I am biased, but it does happen to be true. I think the point about being cohesive is the most salient, and hundreds of years of tradition and very strict parenting (too strict IMO)

I mean Chinese immigrants to Malaysia and Indonesia have been on the receiving end of state sanctioned discrimination to the point where many families had to flee (my in-laws had to leave Malaysai 35 years ago)

And because, as you say network, the have been self-reliant and cohesive.

Also, am I wrong in thinking there has been a trend for well-off caribbean families to send their children back to boarding schools in teh caribbean from the UK? It certainly isn't a new idea, but I do agree that outright segregation is not a good idea.

I guess one can only hope that family values like the ones expressed by you lot on this thread prevailand become the norm.

(do hope no one is taking my POVs against the way they are intended, I certainly don't mean to tread on any toes, I just have things to add to this debate)

I think that there should be black run state and private schools that are open for children of every colour and race.

In my mind it would simply mean that black children particularly boys would not be being failed by the system which they currently are and that black children would as well as non-black children could appreciate that black people are not just a generation of ex-slaves and that we do have a history, a very important one in the development of mankind. Both sides need to know this, knowing about Martin Luther King is fab, but its abou tthe struggle, almost creating a sympathy for us, when the bigger picture is alot more than us fighting for civil rights. If one doesnt find pride and strength in their history then they not not who they are and if you dont know who you are or from whence you came, sometimes these children have no drive, they assume they'll be nothing but a rapper, sportsman or some unskilled professional. The truth is whether you have want to admit it or not is that some teachers are racist, be it intentionally or institutionally.

I think parental responsibilty has a role in black childrens education aswell, if they are not expected to achieve or encouraged to do so at home as some 'urban' young families fail to realise then why should they blame everyone else?

yep, I'd go with that, Tamula.
I live in a borough with one of the richest mixes of races/cultures in the country - v v few black heads. It has to make a difference.

to pick up on Suzy's point - I know a Jamaican guy who has sent his eldest son back to Jamaica for his secondary education (not boarding but staying with relatives)

I haven't had a chance to read much about this subject yet but it reminded me of a study I read about a few years ago. In America some areas changed their system to Small Scale Education, which meant either small stand-alone schools or dividing larger schools into smaller units. Educationally, it resulted in an improvement of achievements across the board but particularly noticeable in black males. SSE may cost money upfront but the US study showed that the investment was more than recouped by the tax that those children eventually paid in the better jobs etc they gained. I'd rather see that sort of system than segregation.

also another issue that I thought of today, perhaps a little picky, how black is black? Where does the segregation start and stop? I think we need to take a look at the education system and see where it is failing. Then we need to see which bits fail who and why. Then we can start to put things right. Family support is key for everyone but where there is no family male role model (for example) then role models should be found from outside the home.

Interesting thread. I have to say I'm surprised at Trevor McDonald, I just can't see that segregation is the answer.

in a nutshell no, why should they be treated any differently....there is a man who cames into my work regularly, he is black, he is a human being....what is the big deal....we shouldn't judge anyone by the colour of their skin regardless,....we are all Gods creatures.

Trevor Phillips honey, unless I've missed something.

Ooops MTMML, I did know that and do know the difference, was in a rush!

Can't have anyone maligning my lovely newsreader now can i?

Extremely interesting thread. Thought this might be interesting for everyone.

I think that Tony Sewell is merely doing what many black families have done which is to send the children home for heir education. The only difference being that he is sending them for a few weeks at a time rather than for a few years.

sorry to be old fashioned but imho is that if kids get help and support at home everyone should achieve their best - good education isn't solely down to the teachers and schools.

agreed joolstoo, but there are difficulties that black boys face and have always faced. I know many supportive black families whose sons have failed. I just don't know why!

maybe - and I'm not being judgmental, I'm thinking of me actually - maybe they got the support (I did) but still didn't put the required work in (I didn't)

what I'm saying is - the support was there, the teaching was there (some good some not so good) but at the end of the day I don't blame anyone for my lack exam success but me.