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Original poster

Help me challenge my PIP decision

64 replies

Worried1987 · 06/12/2023 18:27

I have recently received my report back from my pip assessment and it is full of outright lies. I have only been awarded 2 points ( for reading). A lot of the areas where I believe I meet the criteria they have put worried reports no difficulties with this where in the assessment I described in great detail all the difficulties I do have with that task. For preparing food they acknowledge some of difficulties that I outlined but state that as I am on maternity leave from a job which involves interacting with others I can’t have difficulty with activities of daily living and have awarded me no points for this. My job has absolutely nothing to with preparing food ( just as well as I would set fire to myself if it did).

How do I challenge this ? I know I need to do a mandatory reconsideration before I appeal. How do I explain the report is lies? I am so upset. I wouldn’t mind if they had told the truth but they have made me out to be massive liar.

OP posts:
Lougle · 07/12/2023 15:16

I think it doesn't help that it sounds relatively easy to qualify because '8 points' sounds so low. But the bar to get points is actually quite high.

Original poster
Worried1987 · 07/12/2023 15:51

You clearly think that I am not entitled to anything so should not appeal. I will see what the charity advisor says. I genuinely cannot do the things on the descriptors but if that is not enough then there is no point going through any more stress. It has upset me a lot.

OP posts:
Lougle · 07/12/2023 16:44

Worried1987 · 07/12/2023 15:51

You clearly think that I am not entitled to anything so should not appeal. I will see what the charity advisor says. I genuinely cannot do the things on the descriptors but if that is not enough then there is no point going through any more stress. It has upset me a lot.

Who is 'you?' I don't think anyone has enough information to judge whether you are entitled, partly because you are so convinced that you are entitled that you just say you 'meet the criteria'.

What I am saying, is that each activity has a set of descriptors, and each descriptor has words with very specific legal meanings, which have often been tested in the courts for their definitions. If a claimant meets a descriptor, they get the points. If they meet two different descriptors at different points, the assessor makes a judgement on which descriptor they meet most of the time.

If you were hoping to get mobility points because your sight difficulties make planning and following a journey 'difficult', there is literally no descriptor that this fits in to. If you feel that your sight difficulties are so significant that it makes the planning and following of a journey unsafe, not to a reasonable standard, not at a reasonable speed, or not repeatable, then you need to be very, very explicit in your explanation of why your sight difficulties make it so. Although, if you are making such journeys, the assessor is likely to conclude that you can do so.

I don't think anyone is trying to tell you not to challenge it. I think you need to understand that getting upset with the assessor's report because it doesn't reflect the level of difficulty you have isn't enough to get that result revoked.

Kerrybemmy · 08/12/2023 06:34

If you are making journeys unaccompanied then you can obviously do that activity, which means you won't fit the descriptor.
I work at Citizens Advice and the amount of clients that claim they fit the descriptors to get a PIP award is huge, in over half of cases they overestimate their difficulties or don't understand the descriptors and are not in fact eligible.
You need to explain not only why you believe you fit each relevant descriptor, but also what happens when you do each activity and how you are doing that activity(is someone helping you etc). If you are doing an activity, you claim you cannot do, you are gonna have difficulties getting points on that descriptor.

Lougle · 08/12/2023 07:35

@Kerrybemmy it's not quite as clear as that. Someone could have evidence that although they take journeys unattended, they have nearly been knocked over by cars several times, or have had panic attacks and needed someone to find them and collect them, or that they take three times as long as other people, etc. Some claimants won't completely appreciate their level of disability so will try to do activities that they aren't capable of doing safely.

https://www.rnib.org.uk/living-with-sight-loss/money-and-benefits/personal-independence-payment-pip-toolkit/going-out-planning-and-following-journeys/

@Worried1987 this is the Royal National Institute for the Blind (RNIB) guide to the mobility descriptors. It might help you to identify if your sight difficulties would score points and how to explain it if they do.

Going out – planning and following journeys

If you're affected by sight loss, we're here for you

https://www.rnib.org.uk/living-with-sight-loss/money-and-benefits/personal-independence-payment-pip-toolkit/going-out-planning-and-following-journeys

WillimNot · 08/12/2023 07:40

You can't write the assessor has lied, but you can write "the report contradicts what the assessor was told in detail in the assessment" or "the assessor has not taken into account where I reported this".
You literally need to go section by section, point by point, and provide evidence to back up what has not been taken into account. If you can get a written report by a professional to go in with it that would help. Literally flood them with medical evidence where possible.

Tarantella6 · 08/12/2023 07:46

No-one is saying they don't think you're entitled to it. You haven't really given enough detail. They're trying to help you write the appeal, and they're trying to make sure you use the right words and phrases for the best chance of success.

Yes they are giving examples of where a difficulty is not sufficient but again, they're doing that to try and help.

You have nothing to lose by going for the MR, you can't be worse off than you are now.

itsallabitofamystery · 08/12/2023 07:58

I was turned down for PIP too OP, and I appealed to no avail. I have little to no use of my left arm. The DVLA removed my entitlement to drive manual cars, so I would have thought if they considered me to be disabled, PIP would too. But it's all about what can be done to assist your living. So in my case, I can't carry a pan with my left hand, but I can with my right. Or, I could decant half of the water into a jug and empty the contents in two halves. Likewise, although I can't grip a steering wheel firmly, I can pinch the wheel with my thumb and finger...which apparently is ok as my right arm has full grip. I can't fasten my bra, but that's ok as I have two children who can assist me. I can't unfasten lids on jars, but that's ok as there are aids for it.

So my view on it is that it's extremely difficult now to get PIP, as if you can be aided in anyway, you won't get it. I almost had my arm removed as it can be quite painful, but my consultants agreed to try keep it for cosmetic purposes...which I have to agree with. But if they had removed it, I would probably qualify as it's a visible disability. The fact that I can't use it doesn't matter.

platypuspart · 08/12/2023 08:12

Sounds easy -
Meal Prep
You'll reasonably need aids to cook safely. Otherwise due to sight loss you'll be chopping your fingers off and scalding yourself. So pre-chopped veg count as an aid. I'd probably be arguing assistance actually on safety grounds (I rep PIP appeals at tribunal btw). So how can you tell meat is cooked? How can you cook meat? I just can't understand how you could do this safely with sight loss. AIDS should be easy though - bumpons for dials on the cooker count too.

2
Taking nutrition
Possibly arguable here. You have to get food off the plate into your mouth. Are you spilling food? How can you poke food with a fork and cut it with a knife?

3
Meds
That's an easy one with sight loss. You'll need some form of aid or assistance. Otherwise how do you know what meds you are taking and at what dose age?

4
Washing and bathing
I can't immediately think of anything obvious here, relevant to sight loss.

5
Toileting
As with 4?

6
Dressing
With sight loss defo assistance to chose appropriate clothing. Colours matching. Clothing on the correct way round. Etc

7
Communicating
No

8
Reading
You have points

9
Engaging
Unlikely as your work is customer facing (assume this is face to face)? You cannot see to read body language though, which could cause anxieties. It needs further exploration. Potentially you can't engage to an acceptable standard as you can't see the visual cues we rely on.

10
Budgeting
How do you see to recognise change? How do you see to recognise coins and notes? How do you see the process of something in a shop? I'd potentially be going for assistance with simple budgeting.

11
Planning and following journeys
How can you safely cross a road? How do you manage an unfamiliar journey? I'd be arguing 11d - at the least you'd need assistance. The overwhelming psychological distress isn't relevant here (unless you also suffer either anxiety and depression) it's the sight loss.

So there we have it. Enhanced rate daily living and standard mobility. MR it. And expect to be then going to appeal.

I would also highlight the inaccuracies of the HP report in the MR. It's something you'd need to do at appeal stage anyway (the tribunal would need to do).

Lougle · 08/12/2023 10:40

@platypuspart the OP refers to 'sight difficulties' - that doesn't mean she's necessarily almost blind. I linked to the RNIB guide because it has useful prompts to think about all the issues that sight difficulties may bring.

Original poster
Worried1987 · 08/12/2023 16:33

I have other disabilities but my sight is relevant to getting out as I can’t drive and have the bottom part of my field of vision missing which means I can’t see obstacles. I also have physical disability which affect my balance and joints. I know the descriptors I meet and the star criteria. I thought I had provided evidence in relation to this. I don’t know if they take into account how your conditions combine which is the problem for me.

I have evidence of some of the falls I have had so I am going to challenge this with the hospital records of my admission. I don’t know how they interpret safely because I have an unusually number of accidents compared to a typical person but they might say well you have still done the thing so who knows.

I can make a familiar journey but not an unfamiliar journey.

OP posts:
Original poster
Worried1987 · 08/12/2023 17:06

In addition I told the assessor about one particular fall that had a really devastating impact on me and talked in great detail about the hospital admission I had. She wrote no significant falls reported. How many accidents do you need to have to demonstrate that you are not safe?

OP posts:
Original poster
Worried1987 · 08/12/2023 17:12

Kerrybemmy · 08/12/2023 06:34

If you are making journeys unaccompanied then you can obviously do that activity, which means you won't fit the descriptor.
I work at Citizens Advice and the amount of clients that claim they fit the descriptors to get a PIP award is huge, in over half of cases they overestimate their difficulties or don't understand the descriptors and are not in fact eligible.
You need to explain not only why you believe you fit each relevant descriptor, but also what happens when you do each activity and how you are doing that activity(is someone helping you etc). If you are doing an activity, you claim you cannot do, you are gonna have difficulties getting points on that descriptor.

I appreciate that. I make familiar journeys but not unfamiliar ones. I may score points for that but I might not.

OP posts:
Original poster
Worried1987 · 08/12/2023 17:14

itsallabitofamystery · 08/12/2023 07:58

I was turned down for PIP too OP, and I appealed to no avail. I have little to no use of my left arm. The DVLA removed my entitlement to drive manual cars, so I would have thought if they considered me to be disabled, PIP would too. But it's all about what can be done to assist your living. So in my case, I can't carry a pan with my left hand, but I can with my right. Or, I could decant half of the water into a jug and empty the contents in two halves. Likewise, although I can't grip a steering wheel firmly, I can pinch the wheel with my thumb and finger...which apparently is ok as my right arm has full grip. I can't fasten my bra, but that's ok as I have two children who can assist me. I can't unfasten lids on jars, but that's ok as there are aids for it.

So my view on it is that it's extremely difficult now to get PIP, as if you can be aided in anyway, you won't get it. I almost had my arm removed as it can be quite painful, but my consultants agreed to try keep it for cosmetic purposes...which I have to agree with. But if they had removed it, I would probably qualify as it's a visible disability. The fact that I can't use it doesn't matter.

I am so sorry to hear about your arm. That sounds really tough and it is unfair that there is no help available.

OP posts:
Original poster
Worried1987 · 08/12/2023 17:17

platypuspart · 08/12/2023 08:12

Sounds easy -
Meal Prep
You'll reasonably need aids to cook safely. Otherwise due to sight loss you'll be chopping your fingers off and scalding yourself. So pre-chopped veg count as an aid. I'd probably be arguing assistance actually on safety grounds (I rep PIP appeals at tribunal btw). So how can you tell meat is cooked? How can you cook meat? I just can't understand how you could do this safely with sight loss. AIDS should be easy though - bumpons for dials on the cooker count too.

2
Taking nutrition
Possibly arguable here. You have to get food off the plate into your mouth. Are you spilling food? How can you poke food with a fork and cut it with a knife?

3
Meds
That's an easy one with sight loss. You'll need some form of aid or assistance. Otherwise how do you know what meds you are taking and at what dose age?

4
Washing and bathing
I can't immediately think of anything obvious here, relevant to sight loss.

5
Toileting
As with 4?

6
Dressing
With sight loss defo assistance to chose appropriate clothing. Colours matching. Clothing on the correct way round. Etc

7
Communicating
No

8
Reading
You have points

9
Engaging
Unlikely as your work is customer facing (assume this is face to face)? You cannot see to read body language though, which could cause anxieties. It needs further exploration. Potentially you can't engage to an acceptable standard as you can't see the visual cues we rely on.

10
Budgeting
How do you see to recognise change? How do you see to recognise coins and notes? How do you see the process of something in a shop? I'd potentially be going for assistance with simple budgeting.

11
Planning and following journeys
How can you safely cross a road? How do you manage an unfamiliar journey? I'd be arguing 11d - at the least you'd need assistance. The overwhelming psychological distress isn't relevant here (unless you also suffer either anxiety and depression) it's the sight loss.

So there we have it. Enhanced rate daily living and standard mobility. MR it. And expect to be then going to appeal.

I would also highlight the inaccuracies of the HP report in the MR. It's something you'd need to do at appeal stage anyway (the tribunal would need to do).

Thank you. My central vision is ok it is my visual field which is why I can’t drive so the main one for me is 11 because I can’t always spot hazards.

OP posts:
Babyroobs · 08/12/2023 19:48

Worried1987 · 08/12/2023 16:33

I have other disabilities but my sight is relevant to getting out as I can’t drive and have the bottom part of my field of vision missing which means I can’t see obstacles. I also have physical disability which affect my balance and joints. I know the descriptors I meet and the star criteria. I thought I had provided evidence in relation to this. I don’t know if they take into account how your conditions combine which is the problem for me.

I have evidence of some of the falls I have had so I am going to challenge this with the hospital records of my admission. I don’t know how they interpret safely because I have an unusually number of accidents compared to a typical person but they might say well you have still done the thing so who knows.

I can make a familiar journey but not an unfamiliar journey.

Surely you are still at risk of obstacles from a familiar journey too ?

TigerRag · 08/12/2023 19:49

Are you registered partially sighted? Whilst that doesn't automatically entitle you to pip, it is evidence that you do have difficulties.

Babyroobs · 08/12/2023 19:58

Kerrybemmy · 08/12/2023 06:34

If you are making journeys unaccompanied then you can obviously do that activity, which means you won't fit the descriptor.
I work at Citizens Advice and the amount of clients that claim they fit the descriptors to get a PIP award is huge, in over half of cases they overestimate their difficulties or don't understand the descriptors and are not in fact eligible.
You need to explain not only why you believe you fit each relevant descriptor, but also what happens when you do each activity and how you are doing that activity(is someone helping you etc). If you are doing an activity, you claim you cannot do, you are gonna have difficulties getting points on that descriptor.

This is exactly my experience too having worked at CAB and now for a different charity. Everyone thinks they meet the criteria, a lot of people think they can be awarded PIP just on a diagnosis. I have one client currently who after getting an award just a few months ago at tribunal has now gone and told PIP his condition has worsened without any thought as to whether that has impacted his abilities in relation to the descriptors ( it hasn't). I have had to tell him I can't help with the forms again, we just have too many people needing help, we are totally overwhelmed. Half the people wanting help have very little medical evidence, one recently hadn't seen a GP or specialist for ten years. Not saying this applies to you op as you clearly know what descriptors you meet and have medical evidence. But many don't, they don't understand how PIP works, how points are scored. many just try to claim it because they can't live on the other benefits ( ESA, UC ) alone so just think they'll have a go for PIP. I do appreciate it's hard, I just wish people would research things a bit better before applying because the inappropriate claims just make it a more lengthy process for everyone else. A previous organization I worked for would not even help people complete the form without seeing extensive Drs notes & medical evidence.
Goodness knows what is going to happen when they make changes to the WCA and make PIP a qualifying degerminator of whether someone receives the health element on UC.

Original poster
Worried1987 · 08/12/2023 21:23

Babyroobs · 08/12/2023 19:48

Surely you are still at risk of obstacles from a familiar journey too ?

Show quote history

I am but I can only go places that are a short walk as I don’t trice and struggle with public transport, I take my children to school which I told the PIP assessor so I am unlikely to get any points for that.

OP posts:
Viviennemary · 08/12/2023 21:29

It's not very clear as to how you would qualify for PIP.

WaitingForMojo · 08/12/2023 21:47

It sounds very clear to me, op, and I work in welfare law on pip appeals . Please do a mandatory reconsideration, outlining which descriptors you meet and which evidence shows this. If you can, use one of the organisations such as Pipps who can help you with this.

i read these reports every day and it is unfortunately not uncommon for assessors to lie, sneak, attempt to trip people up, and produce highly inaccurate reports that don’t comply with the law.

They all say the same thing. Please try not to take it personally and appeal it.

Lougle · 09/12/2023 13:44

I think from the way you've posted, and please correct me if I'm wrong, your problem is that you've perhaps assumed that the person reading your form and doing your assessment will know, understand, and appreciate the difficulties your conditions cause you. They won't, necessarily.

On your form, you needed to spell out in minute detail every difficulty you have with each activity. It isn't enough to say 'I struggle with cooking because I might burn myself'. You have to say 'Because of x condition, which causes my visual field to be restricted, I have difficulty in y, z, ways. Condition a causes me to have difficulty standing at the worktop. If I use a stool, I am too close/far away/high/low to see the guys l food because of my visual field is restricted. If I don't use a stool, I can see the food but can't balance. This causes risk of injury and I have needed treatment for burns/scalds.'

If you are asked a question about whether you can do something and you don't think you can do it safely, to an acceptable standard, in a reasonable time, or repeatedly, the answer is "no, because" not "yes, but...." Because as soon as you say the word yes, they can move on.

TigerRag · 09/12/2023 18:01

Worried1987 · 08/12/2023 21:23

I am but I can only go places that are a short walk as I don’t trice and struggle with public transport, I take my children to school which I told the PIP assessor so I am unlikely to get any points for that.

Show quote history

The help you need has to be reasonable. Is it reasonable to suggest that you can go out without help?

Lougle · 09/12/2023 18:27

TigerRag · 09/12/2023 18:01

The help you need has to be reasonable. Is it reasonable to suggest that you can go out without help?

Show quote history

What do you mean by that @TigerRag ? There is no definition of 'reasonable help' in the pip regulations that I'm aware of. The help you need has to be necessary, but that's defined by the word 'need'. Are you trying to say that the help the claimant says they require needs to be 'needed' rather than 'wanted'?