Does this count as self employed/working 16+ hours per week to qualify for the 30 hours childcare?

[dubbyoo]

Hoping some financially/tax savvy mumsnet terms can advise.

I've recently given up my part time job with a plan to "portfolio work" for a couple of years. AKA study part time, volunteer one day a week, sell all our junk on eBay, look after a flat that we rent out, do some freelance work, sell some home made crafts, manage the renovations on our house and do lots of diy and mum a lot with our 2 and 5yrd olds.

I'm looking at how this effects eligibility for the free childcare hours for my soon to be 3 year old and I'm gutted to find out that I'm no longer eligible as I'm not "employed" for the 16 hours minimum. My earnings from the various sources may well take me into the "earned the equivalent of 16 hrs a week on minimum wage", but only just. It's going to be a very frugal couple of years while retraining and doing some renovations and trialing whether I can make small amounts of money from art/craft things. Qualifying for the 30 hours free childcare is pivotal to the plan working!

So.. my question really is what counts as income to make me honestly eligible for joining the "tax free" childcare scheme and 30 hours funded nursery?

The government do give you a one year grace period when you register as self employed, so I'm hoping to do that for the time being.

As a self employed person, does rent from the buy to let count as part of my income for the 16 hours? I already do an end of year tax return for this but I'm guessing once I'm self employed, this will be a bit more complicated.

Background: partner's income (

I love the way OP mentioned in her first post that she doesn’t receive benefits because you know that’s bad but trying to play the system for the additional 15 hours is fine.

thenewaverage it will count as income, but not self employment or employment. These are the two things that op has to be earning minimum wage on for 16 hours a week to qualify for the free 30 hours.

Ah cool clash, that makes sense. Thanks

What would the freelance work be? Could this be scaled up after a year?

Craft businesses can be more than a "hobby" business but it takes work and effort - like any business. Craft shops like HobbyCraft wouldn't exist otherwise, and there have been others. The issue is where it is about making there is a fine line between artisan and craft and hobby craft selling a few bits and bobs. Making curtains is still a craft business but more operational in that if you were an artist only doing one off pieces to curtains which whilst they are all different the process is the same etc.

I think the issue with a craft business is to treat it as a business not just an outlet for a hobby. So flytying for fishing is an art, but there is a def business opportunity on several fronts but you have to consider how you tie enough to meet that opportunity - hence use of outworkers.

And clearly as a target you are not key in terms of people selling craft items because you appear to be derogatory of smaller micro businesses.

Playing the system is different to defrauding the system, its about making sure you know how it works so you comply with the rules - there is nothing wrong with that

Whilst I don’t want to condone what looks like a blatant attempt to fiddle the system would the figures stack up for your partner to employ you as their freelance PA for however many hours a week?

Are you actually kidding? You are looking at ways of fudging the system so you can run a "craft business" and be a "stay at home mum" whilst you study very part time and claim 30h a week childcare so you can basically sit on your bum with your kid at nursery.

^This

You are aware, I assume, that nurseries and childcare providers struggle because of the 30 hours 'free' childcare which is hugely underfunded by the government?
And yet you're looking at ways to make it look as though you're entitled to it when, clearly, you're not.

You don't actually need 30 hours of free childcare though, do you, because you aren't working. Part-time studying and volunteering (reading in your DC's school or going on their school trips?) are life style choices, not employment. Selling your own junk on ebay is simply that, selling your own junk on ebay. You are not trading. Managing renovations on your own home something that any other person does in their own time and does not generate income for you, neither does DIY or being "a mum a lot". The only thing resembling work in your lovely world is a little bit of freelancing.

Feel free to have a portfolio career, but use the 15 hours available to enable it. Don't expect the taxpayer to subsidise your childcare and lovely lifestyle.

Is anyone else reading this and having a lightbulb moment about why there is so much tat on FB made by mums of young children? I'd thought it was something to keep themselves occupied for being bored when their kids were at nursery. Now I'm wondering if they're all claiming to be self-employed and claiming the additional hours.

The rental income will most definitely not count towards the threshold - it will be declared to HMRC as property income not trading income. You're not running a trade with a few houses - you are just renting out one property.

Cleo

Selling stuff you already own is subject to Capital Gains Tax well yes, but not on general second-hand stuff you sell on ebay.
You pay it on the proft on the sale of high-value items like property, or antiques and paintings worth thousands.

RB68 is correct
Playing the system is different to defrauding the system, its about making sure you know how it works so you comply with the rules - there is nothing wrong with that.

The op did not say she would defraud, she was looking for ideas to be eligible under the current rules. I'm sick of pp jumping on with I'm a taxpayer, blah blah blah.

I imagine they’re referring to trading income rather than property income (unless of course you ran a property business that’s not one rental).

I think you’re on shaker ground with your original post proposal. Maybe take a look at HMRC’s badges of trade and see if what you’re proposing regarding the hobby selling meets the criteria that HMRC use to determine whether someone is trading for tax purposes

Off the top of my head

1. profit motive
2. frequency of transactions
3. length of ownership
4. enhancement
5. reason for buying and selling
6. personal use of the assets/inventory etc

Selling personal household items on eBay wouldn’t count, I doubt the 1 rental income would either. The craft selling would if it meets the above

I think @orangeteddy has it spot on. Build up your freelance work over the next 12 months. If you are working freelance you should earn a bit more than employed (in the short term) so you could make £125 per week within those hours and have time for other things as well.

So, what is your "freelance work", how easy is it to get and how much does it pay per hour/day?

selling your own stuff on eBay as a business- makes it a business. So tax, possibly VAT, need to register with eBay as a business seller etc Ebay business account has a different fee structure- more expensive to sell- no free listing days etc

BTW eBay is dead in the water.

@Chingling why do you say eBay is dead in the water? Are there other better sites out there I should be looking at? I've used a local Facebook selling page before for bulkier items so might try that too

@Chingling why do you say eBay is dead in the water?

Because it is. They changed it from a site for selling second hand goods to a site for mass chinese imports. They are now chasing the pricing structure for private sellers- but too late.

No-one uses ebay for new anymore- amazon have taken over that market.

Private sellers largely report that stuff no longer sells and if it does it is at lower prices.

I have been one by since it was US only- you had to send dollar bills by post- no PayPal. Was an early power seller when it was a community- no business accounts back then. Sold well over £200,000 of stuff over 20 odd years (sold a very large collection of something and cleared a house)

These days little sells. I no longer look there myself to buy- so I suppose that people like me are part of the demise.

@Chingling That's really interesting thank you. Yes, I rarely look on there for stuff myself now so I should have more realistic expectations for how difficult it will be to shift stuff and make any actual money. Where do you sell now if you don't mind me asking?

Having got used to the speed and free delivery from amazon prime etc it annoys me to wait a week and pay £3 postage myself on second hand clothes etc so why do I think other people would be different?

This thread has been useful to me for revising my vague plans. Despite some of the really bitter and sometimes downright bitchy comments from certain posters, it has given me some good practical advice. I think I knew deep down that it was more sensible time wise to just do some extra freelance/agency work to clock up PAYE hours while I'm retraining. It is just so hard to get it all to fit.