to retrain as a web developer at 50?

[beastlyslumber]

Inspired by another thread in which there's lots of discussion about how in-demand developers are at the moment, I started doing a little research to see if it's the sort of thing I might be interested in, and I am! But I'm 50, have worked in education for most of my career and I'm worried about how long the training might take and what my prospects might be as an older female in this field. Can anyone advise?

You should look at Digital Mums training.

https://digitalmums.com

Dh teaches a lot of people who are retraining. Many have gotten amazing jobs no matter what age they are. The biggest question is whether it's a fit for you. Hes constantly despondent by lovely people who want 'to work in computers' and find it such a slog. They just dont click with it and a college will always try to get their (paying) mature students in but never say 'but do you actually have an interest in it? Can you do it?'

WTF is a 'web company'?
A company that you pay to create and maintain your website and other digital products. Most small companies pay another company to handle their web presence. Such companies handle the websites for dozens of other businesses. They’re typically very male dominated and discriminatory. Women will have more luck getting work at big companies which aren’t purely web focused and which just happen to have an IT department, e.g. Sainsbury’s or NHS.

@Arianya

Web companies tend to be run by young single men who aren’t very accommodating towards older people, women in general, or people with kids and commitments which mean they can’t do drinks after work or team building at weekends etc. I’ve also found that the fact these companies are mostly run by young men means they can be very discriminatory and they don’t have the maturity to understand people’s legal rights or even common decency. That’s before you consider the sheer boredom of sitting at a desk coding for 8 hours a day.

Nonsense.

Devs work everywhere, for a start, not just 'web companies'.

And also, surprisingly, people who are into coding don't find doing it boring...!

It's not just 'sitting at a desk all day' - problem solving, collaborating, learning new things literally every day... watching my devs at work is what's made me jump into learning, because I love that things are always changing and there's always something new to be learning.

@Arianya

WTF is a 'web company'? A company that you pay to create and maintain your website and other digital products. Most small companies pay another company to handle their web presence. Such companies handle the websites for dozens of other businesses. They’re typically very male dominated and discriminatory. Women will have more luck getting work at big companies which aren’t purely web focused and which just happen to have an IT department, e.g. Sainsbury’s or NHS.

Almost nobody going into web dev these days would be going to work for one of those companies. They'd almost certainly be looking at an in-house dev role or maybe at a broader creative agency (which very much tend not to be male dominated).

Thanks for starting this thread.

I've worked in marketing for 20 years and have been editing the company website for about 3 years using the CMS. I'm 41.

I love it! I am the oldest in my team but I don't care. I know I'm a good all rounder and have worked hard, and have lots of experience and interpersonal skills needed for working with other departments. We all bring something different.

My problem is I'm self taught and would like some formal qualifications now so I can earn some more money. Some great ideas for research now.

I feel cheeky asking but I would be grateful for any pointers for me to move forward. How do I move from editing using a CMS to becoming a Web developer? I will definitely look at all the links to training courses.

Web development isn't particularly technical (for a typical website).

I'd argue more important are an eye for design and user experience (UX)...these are far harder to learn than the technical basics.

Note some people struggle with the kind of algorithmic thinking that programming entails...it's not a question of intellect, rather just brain wiring imho. I know this is a completely anecdotal/outlandish statement but I've been working in programming for 20 years, specifically in web development for over 10, and some people never quite get it regardless of training.

So my advice would be first - learn a little Javascript and see how you get on with simple programming. There are tonnes of free (and paid) resources for Javascript online. It's probably one of the most common languages in use today given it is used by all web browsers.

If you find you like coding (and it can be quite addictive) then go for it (if you can handle the wage drop since you'd be looking for a junior role). Advertising / marketing agencies are always on the look out for developers.

A final note re age. Whilst ageism probably is prevalent we live in an aging society, 50 isn't that old these days. A positive attitude and keenness to learn goes further than youth - that's how I approach recruiting.

Would you really be able to earn a living after such a short time retraining? I've been learning basic coding as my DS is really into it and I've just been learning bits and pieces of Java and Python to help him as he moves beyond Scratch. I have an aptitude for it. I'm also pretty well versed in youth culture for someone in her 40s as I have a very mixed age social circle through my hobby. Getting some formal qualifications over the space of a few months and then earning enough to live on seems too good to be true. I wouldn't even need to earn all that much as I own my home so can manage to live relatively comfortably on a low income.

Agree with @Nothappyatwork

I'd choose something other than web development tbh, there are lots of other technical roles that are more in demand, attract higher salaries and, imo, are more interesting.

@Alonelonelylonersbadidea

We pay our interns around 40k which raises to near 50k after a year. I do the hiring and I would actively want older developers and also women. It makes me very happy when we get applications from either.

Do it. Plus web development is not rocket science. It's something that's learnable on the job (as opposed to more hard programming disciplines). I would recommend getting Python under your belt and you can do Udemy courses for this or even find them on EdX.

Why older career changers? Is it because they'll stay longer, unlike the young'uns who move jobs every 2 years? I've found them a mixed bag, they need to have additional humility in order to start at the bottom. 'Maturity', 'life experience' etc all great in a project management role (which many end up moving to). Irrelevant when I want a senior technical expert.

'Ageism' in tech is really about the pay ceiling for an individual contributor., and skill relevance.
After 15+ years the additional value of more experience stagnates.

There are also a lot of 'older' devs who aren't actually competent programmers. They've spent their entire careers on a niche thing, but don't understand the principles and how to map it onto something else.

I have no degree, and owe my career to older techies who trained me the correct way. For us, picking up a new programming language is like changing clothes. Our minds see beyond syntax, beyond buzzwords, to pick out the core capabilities.

This article explains it well :
wiki.c2.com/?MappersVsPackers

A lot of people are scared away by the so-called 'constant retraining' needed in tech but really. It's easy if you're trained correctly.

Sorry OP this isn't directly related but age for me is irrelevant. I can tell whether someone's a 'mapper' or 'packer' in 10 mins. I've hired /worked with people of all backgrounds. It's easier to hire for potential, and train on skills.

You might encounter issues with HR (who don't know how to hire good techs) but if you get yourself in front of an actual team lead , or similar they'll reward talent accordingly. Assuming of course you really are talented.

@stayathomer

Dh teaches a lot of people who are retraining. Many have gotten amazing jobs no matter what age they are. The biggest question is whether it's a fit for you. Hes constantly despondent by lovely people who want 'to work in computers' and find it such a slog. They just dont click with it and a college will always try to get their (paying) mature students in but never say 'but do you actually have an interest in it? Can you do it?'

There are also far more non-coding jobs, that constantly need people but is swamped by the 'learn code' (?) message. Governance analysts, product managers, project managers, service managers etc. These would be an easy win for career changes but also offer faster progression, with previous experience making a big difference.

True a lot of people don't take to programming naturally, and that's ok, there's space for them too.

*not 'naturally'.
It's very pedantic, step-by-step, many people don't like that.

Glad this thread was started.

I always suggest tech on here. I probably sound like a broken record.

I've been at this for 40 years and not stopping.

There are so many roles in tech.
Just a few

Developers
Web designer
Web Developer
Mobile App Developer
Analysts
Business Analysts
Software testers
Project Managers
Tech Support

OK, what's the downside of this sort of work?

Assuming you have an aptitude for it and learn what you need to know?

Plus you find an employer who pays the right salary and is progressive enough to see that it's the sort of work that can be done anywhere and Teams is more than enough for the collaboration needed rather than requiring bums on seats in an office for no more than presenteeism's sake?

Is it very high pressure? Long hours? Expectation that you'll do 12 hours of work in 8? You spend hours and hours building a website then the brief is changed without them telling you and you have to work all night to get v2 ready? Being expected to fix a broken website now even if you're in the middle of your Christmas lunch because the sale starts at midnight and it has to cope with the influx of bargain hunters?

I'm mildly interested but people seem to be painting it as a bit 'too good to be true' and I'm also slightly curious as to why most of our junior staff haven't gone off to do this (geeky graduate types currently underemployed in scientific support functions).

Is it very high pressure? Long hours? Expectation that you'll do 12 hours of work in 8? You spend hours and hours building a website then the brief is changed without them telling you and you have to work all night to get v2 ready? Being expected to fix a broken website now even if you're in the middle of your Christmas lunch because the sale starts at midnight and it has to cope with the influx of bargain hunters?

It can be all of these, sometimes in the same day!
It's also an industry with a bottom FULL of people who think they can do the job (with varying degrees of truth to that), and for less money, so until you start pulling ahead in terms of skill or experience being undercut is a real pain. Many companies also get the "we'll outsource it, it's cheaper!" bug, so they'll sack their whole team and hire an agency based outside of the UK to do the work, again with varying degrees of success.
There's a super-high churn rate as well -- startups boom and bust, agencies gain and lose clients, budgets wax and wane. It's not the most stable of industries.

Much of it depends on where you work, and where you're happy. DH has had all sorts of roles and company cultures vary widely -- sometimes he's That Guy Who Fixes Everything, the one person who has the keys to the kingdom and works miracles, other times he's been one part of a wider team (and when the churn rate in employees is high that has its own stresses.)

The trade off is that it IS also all of the good bits -- well paid, reasonably satisfying, and easily portable.

I’m also considering this. Pre-kid I worked in admin (no job satisfaction and utterly neverending) and health (utterly suffocating. Could make a difference, but mostly not allowed to). Now she’s 11 and just gone to secondary, I can either re-train or do min wage type stuff. I quite like money, and I have the time to retrain and work full time now, rather than scraping by off my side hustle. Little kids need all of your time and virtually no money to be happy. Teens want all of your money and none of your time! I really want to boost my pension and investments too. It was fine to de-prioritise them while I had a little kid, but now I need step up and adult!

I’d want to work from home first off, although in a couple of years, I’d be up for an office job. Is that usual?

[quote somethinghere]@Bellex do you have any idea who they did the 4 week intensive course with?

Was it an employer or a training company?[/quote]
It was a training school.

Just asked someone in my team and they training through free code camp. Someone else said as he was over 50 he got a grant through his local college to retrain and did it there

@TibetanTerrah

Following. I can code but don't have any qualifications in it. Ive built numerous complex websites but any knowledge was learned on the job! Does anyone have any recommendations for what/where I could best get a qualification?

You don't need a recognised qualification, just a good portfolio. If you're near a city React is likely the most popular framework/library, so brush up on building in that, not vanilla.

@Primtemps You don't need to know anything about young people to be a web developer. Building applications is in many industries; you could be working on TV streaming or for a major finance company. Nothing to do with pop culture.

@BarbaraofSeville Not sure where you looked. Junior salaries are edging over 35-45k nowadays and senior salaries in the 80-90 and above. 120k not uncommon in the top companies. An 'IT tech' or a helpdesk worker can expect a much lower salary than a database architect, Senior React developer or Python data dev.

And to be honest I've not found any downsides yet. I love the work, I love the people. It's endlessly creative, always challenging and feels amazing when the feature comes together and the customers love it. You're constantly problem solving and get a lot of respect for doing so. It's a world away from some shitty job where you're treated like crap. You're valued, big time.

Industry is really committed to good work life balance, very flexible and you're treated like an adult. I do the school runs each day. I don't do evenings or weekends. Just my hours. No fuss if you have an appointment.

Most of the time when I try and encourage people to do it they just shut me down and say "I could never do that" and that's the end of the conversation. More room for us then!

"Web companies tend to be run by young single men who aren’t very accommodating towards older people, women in general, or people with kids and commitments" is probably the stupidest thing I've read about the developer industry, but OK.

@Wanderingowl Yes. 3 month bootcamp and straight into a job. So long as you can do it - and some can't, they quit - companies are eager for new devs, as they tend to be ambitious and move on after 1-2 years. Sometimes even every 6 months. I was a a stay at home parent, then on a well above salary. Just had the knack.

You're constantly problem solving and get a lot of respect for doing so.

I think if you asked DH to summarise what he loves about his job in one sentence, that is the sentence.

Tech is a brilliant industry.
There is loads you can do.

If you want to go down the Web dev/wordpress/digital route join a group called mums in marketing on Facebook

Software developers earn a wild amount and tons of the jobs are remote now!

It depends on where you want to work, most of the big professional service companies aren't particularly ageist as they're all being madly Equality driven (at least in my experience to date).

The salaries may not be particularly high until you get your knees under the desk though.

I would look at the less sexy options because you’ve got more chance of breaking in, Data architects are commanding £150,000 a year at the moment. Analysts around £50,000
What’s the saying, if you do the work that nobody else wants to do your reap the rewards that nobody else gets.

Okay, tell me more, @Nothappyatwork !! How do I get into data architecture?

Developers are in demand because it is a highly skilled job that not everyone can do. Definitely do some training before quitting your current job and see if it is something you are skilled at. Free training is a good start, bit you'd have to be willing to put in the years as a junior developer to build what you can do, and the rate of pay isn't amazing at that level.

DH is a developer, Java, XML and XSLT historically but now doing AWS and loving it.
His company are desperate for testers and often they move from testing to development because of the ability to progress. For testing, an enquiring logical mind is what is needed with great attention to detail and if you can write SQL then great.

They also like older candidates because all the young men recently have been billy bullshitters - claiming they know multiple technologies when really they have read about them. The test manager is a middle aged lady who is fabulous.